Mon
Mar 28 2011
03:43 am

A fully employed male in 2004 was making $800 less per year than his father in 1972. Family wages are up slighlty since then because a 2004 woman with a 6 month-old child is as likely to work as her mother with a sixteen year-old child in 1972.

So, we have roughly the same amount of money.

The American family spends 32% less on clothing.

18% less on food.

52% less on appliances.

24% lower per car average, with people keeping a car 2 years longer.

These two-income families should have it made. Why are they whining? Why are children now more likely to go through their parents bankruptcy than divorce? Where did the money go?

Ok, she's not Jesus, but this is not a lecture any conservative should dismiss. Why do big Republican influence peddlers want to shut her up, and are they winning?

Elizabeth Warren March 8, 2007

Word of the day: kettling. "You’re all trapped, you’re all guilty."

jlynn's picture

Interesting lecture...

What she's not reporting on is one aspect that I believe is also a contributing factor to 'Where did you spend the money?' -- credit card interest. Doing a very quick research (today's time is tight), I was not able to find the percentage of gross income between 1972 and 2004. Does anyone have this data?

reform4's picture

Simple answers.

Healthcare

Higher Education

Debt

Telecommunications and information(cellphones, home internet, TV which used to be free)

(I'm not sure other things like utilities, I don't now if we're talking about inflation-adjusted numbers or not).

bizgrrl's picture

She is talking about

She is talking about inflation-adjusted numbers as well as the median family in America, median income, married couples with 2 kids, one generation (1970s to 2000s).

She says families spend the most money on mortgages (76% increase from early 70s to early 2000s), health insurance (74% increase), cars (52% increase), childcare (100% increase), and taxes (25% increase).

Childcare 100% increase because, she says, the spouse didn't work in the early 70s, thus no childcare costs.

She says, the entry level house in the 2000s changed to what used to be the 4th house a family purchased in the 70s, with all the high end items.

More money is spent on cars because, she says, two income families, two people in the workforce, leads to two car families where as in the 70s families owned fewer cars.

Two income earners in family, more taxes.

She says, the things families spend less on are all small purchases (clothing, food, appliances), flexible purchases (can cut back). The things families spend more on are all big expenses (cars, mortgages, health insurance).

I listened to almost all of the recording. I like and admire Elizabeth Warren. As Paul Krugman said, she's not Jesus. She is right up there with the best of them when it comes to using numbers to explain theories. Not that she is wrong on any of her points. Exaggerated maybe. Pushed towards a preferred conclusion. So what. I'm sure each point can be debated in detail.

R. Neal's picture

Elizabeth Warren is one of

Elizabeth Warren is one of the few people in federal government you can trust.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Tightwad that I am...

She says, the entry level house in the 2000s changed to what used to be the 4th house a family purchased in the 70s, with all the high end items.

This is what I notice has changed.

It was in 2006, I think, that I mentioned here at KV that my dad had earned $22K back in 1973 and that my father-in-law had earned $18K (per my mother-in-law).

Someone here found an on-line "inflation calculator" and reported that my dad's earnings translated into about $103K and my father-in-law's earnings translated into $89K in 2006 dollars, which was and is "good money."

Neither my mom nor my husband's mom worked outside the home.

However, both my husband and I grew up in homes for which our dads had paid approximately one year's household income.

Imagine my surprise when I later bought my first home--a modest two-bedroom condo--and learned my bank would finance up to three or four year's income for my mortgage!

I was single then, so I hesitantly financed two year's income--and I couldn't have afforded a dime more.

The last number I heard for average Knox County household income was still under $50K, so I continue to wonder who the heck buys all these $300K homes for sale in this market!

You know my reputation for frugality, I know, but I remain convinced that too many people of our generation (I'm 53) try to live way, way beyond their means.

And that's a personal decision on their part that has absolutely nothing to do with inflation or the economy more generally.

j.f.m.'s picture

I remain convinced that too

I remain convinced that too many people of our generation (I'm 53) try to live way, way beyond their means.

This is true, but there's an awful lot of responsibility on the lenders' side of the equation. For reasons we all know, it became increasingly advantageous for lenders to make more and more credit available to more and more people. Obviously nobody is forced to take on more debt than they can afford, but we have made it awfully easy for people -- and when a banker or credit card company is basically telling you, "Look, you can afford this, no big deal," a lot of people are going to take the word of the supposed experts. It's like being at an all-you-can-eat buffet and having a nutritionist or doctor standing there saying, "Go ahead, have the fries and the pudding and the Coke and the cake!"

The people with money to lend are the real ones in control of the situation. I think it's too easy to just blame people's lack of self-control. Which of course is why Elizabeth Warren thinks we need strong consumer protection from our corporate loan sharks. I agree with her.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

And while I'm on a roll...

There's one reason and one reason only that today's UT grad is graduating $25K in debt: They're financing their day-to-day living expenses associated with living on campus, rather than living at home.

Yes, tuition has skyrocketed. Still, the average ACT score at UTK is a 27, so the average UTK student most certainly has a lottery scholarship. Given their relatively high ACT scores, it appears that many UTK students also receive the supplemental lottery scholarship for ACT scores over 29. Furthermore, I read that for this year's class, the average Pell Grant recipient at UTK has a household income of over $70K--relative to that average Knox County household income of under $50K--so we should assume a great many UTK students also receive Pell Grants.

Their tuition costs are virtually free. These students who graduate owing so much money have borrowed to cover their housing and food costs--for years on end.

Why are their parents counseling them to do this? Back in my day, a kid who couldn't afford to live on campus just lived at home with mom and dad.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the idiot who unnecessarily finances his day-to-day living expenses for four or five years, then graduates whining about how much he owes. Get real.

R. Neal's picture

Do they still require

Do they still require freshmen to live on campus?

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

"Still?" They didn't require freshmen to live on campus in my day. I was a commuter student, as was most everyone I knew.

If you're speaking of students from out-of-town, maybe. But again: Why move out-of-town to attend college if it means financing your day-to-day living expenses? Why not attend college within communting distance of mom and dad's house?

Just everybody can't afford to move out-of-town to attend college. Today, though, most everybody seems to think they can!

smalc's picture

When I was a freshman there

When I was a freshman there in 1990-91, they required freshman to either live in dorms or with parents. At least that was the official policy, lots of locals lied about it. I always wondered how they could dictate where an 18 year old could live.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

So should the parents of this 18 year-old counsel him/her to live at home while attending college?

Or should these parents advise this 18 year-old to borrow $$$ for four or five years to cover costs of housing, electricity, water, sewer, phone, internet, newspaper, and daily meals eaten in restaurants/cafeterias?

Keep in mind: If you answer "the latter," by age 22 this young person owing $25K in student loan debt will owe approximately half his likely annual income of $48,661 upon graduation (more than half, if this young person is an education major, like my own college student is). relative to that one year's income our fathers likely owed on their homes.

How would such a level of debt bode for this 22 year-old's ability to also own a home? How would it bode for the overall level of debt this 22 year-old is likely to carry throughout the first decade or so of his career?

All I can say is that I would never, ever counsel my own college student, who will do well to earn $34K on graduating with her teaching degree, to live beyond her means in her teens and twenties, knowing how the decision would impact on her ability to own a home, save $$$, etcetera, once she started work.

That's just one example of how I think our "culture of spending" has changed, though.

Suffice to say that I can provide reams of anecdotal evidence to attest to the fact that, among my neighbors out here in the 'burbs, more and more people I know personally are now paying dearly for the "instant gratification" that was so important to them in years past.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

And one more thing...

Retirement. When 43% of working Americans have less than $10K saved for retirement, they simply can't afford all those "technology expenses." Four cell phones per household and 100+ TV channels are NOT necessities.

So...whatever changes may have occurred in our economy over the last few decades, the more sobering changes have taken place with regard to our "culture of spending."

Yeah, this liberal does, indeed, understand what's meant by "personal responsibility." Let's get on it.

Gone, now.

EricLykins's picture

and when a banker or credit

and when a banker or credit card company is basically telling you, "Look, you can afford this, no big deal,"

Realtor/mortgage broker: "I know it's a little out of your price range, but it's the cheapest we have in this school district."

Bird_dog's picture

Thanks for posting.

I am a big fan of E'beth Warren. And have a special interest in personal finance and lots of experience with low-income household finances.

First to Tamara's question about average income and 300K houses. The usual household income is MEDIAN income, the mid-point. If that is still <$50K, then if there were 100,000 households, 50,000 would make 0-50K per year and 50,000 would make from 50K-gazillion per year.

We picked out Knoxville from among several state University towns to save money on dorm expenses for kids in college. Only 1/3 of our rowdy kids went to UT and graduated debt free (a finance major who actually appreciated that fact!)

Government can encourage certain behaviors by offering tax incentives (mortgage interest deduction) for homeowners; earned income credit for working parents; and subsidized mortgage money with low downpayments and loan guarantees to encourage low-income households to become homebuyers. That's when I really saw home prices adjust upward to absorb all that easy credit. And buyers took on bigger loans than they could afford with the government underwriting the risk - hence the bailout when the risk bubble collapsed.

Very interesting lecture.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Not my reality

What I'm saying, Bird, is that I know too many families in my neighborhood earning little more than that "average household income" in Knox County who've stretched themselves beyond their financial limitations--and it's just too easy to blame someone else for their mistakes.

The T family, which includes a stay-at-home mom, bought their $250K home--five times their annual household income--for $2000 down, then promptly financed two new cars at a cost of one more year's income. She told me so. She also told me their family of five doesn't carry any health insurance because it's "too expensive." When they ultimately suffer that medical emergency, they'll get no pity from me.

The F family, another including a stay-at-home mom, has an $80K income (only because Dad works two jobs), yet they had to bail out of their $300K home by selling it for $100K less than the assessed value for taxes. Don't know why Mrs. F continued to pay for four cellphones, 100+ TV channels, and hopped in the car weekly to drive across town for someone paint her toenails, but whatever. Again, no pity.

The K family bought a somewhat more modestly priced home, but spent lavishly on kids' designer clothes/pricey electronics/unnecessary travel, even as they begged a local church to pay their phone and KUB bills (and even as they repeatedly bummed gas money off my family). The church told me so, after they cut off the K family. We cut them off, too. No. Pity.

Two other families in my neighborhood have also bummed gas money off my family in recent years, in spite of their spending on many luxuries my family doesn't spend on.

Then there are my low life relatives, every last one of them bankrupt at least once and all of them enjoying income levels in excess of my own. As they move into their 60's, homeless now and lacking one thin dime in savings and retirement, they're starting to pile in on their grown children (three of them, so far). I decline their frequent invitations to restaurants and nightclubs, though, both because outings that frequent aren't part of my family's budget AND because I really don't share much with them in terms of any of their values.

And those college students? My daughter has now completed four semesters living in a dormitory apartment with three other girls, and every term she has lost roomates who elected to move into apartments.

Now, none of these girls received scholarships adequate to cover even their dorm costs (which, of course, include electric, water/sewer, phone, internet, cable TV, and newspaper), so even when they lived with her they were borrowing the money for their housing.

But each of these four semesters, one or more then moved out of the dorm and began borrowing to cover even higher living expenses in apartments? One of them chose to live alone in a $500/month apartment (incurring all those other associated expenses alone, as well). Surely that one will owe $40,000 at graduation, just for her living expenses!

These days, it's everywhere I turn, it's everyone I know. I have HAD to begin divulging to my own teenaged children what I know about their friends' families, thusly (TRUE stories, every one):

Q: R's family is going to Cancun for Spring Break. Why can't we?
A: R's family is underwater on their mortgage.

Q: T just got a new Wi. When do I get one?
A: T's mom just had her car repossesed.

Q: M got a new ATV last summer. Can I get one, too?
A: M's dad put that $4000 purchase on a credit card. Now their house is in foreclosure.

I can't buy this "it's the government's fault, it's the banks' fault." It's just so contrary to my personal experience out here in the 'burbs.

teachersupporter's picture

Where did you spend the money?

Excellent observations people. I especially like Tamara's observations on trends.

Standard of living goes up or down based on how well our economy is doing.

The economy depends on how well we are doing in about 150 key industries - what kind of market share we have, not just domestically but worldwide. Dominant market share is key to producing excellent profit margins, along with product innovation to stay ahead of competitors.

The market where we HAVE TO compete in these industries for national survival is not just TN, not just the USA, but every country where potential customers exist. It is a world market.

Very simplistically, if we are competitive, within these industries we make more money, and pay more taxes, with the taxes paying for the things that federal, state and local governments do. Unfortunately, we are losing market share in 111 of 115 key industries to foreign suppliers, while most of our tax financed institutions spent increasingly more taxes. We have lost a number of industries, but fortunately our creativity and discovery of new technologies is still very high, driven by the universities and their graduate schools in science and engineering.

What drives this entire national machinery for survival? The engineers and scientists that come out of our graduate schools, especially the PhDs. This is the area where we are not doing so well any more, and we have been on this down trend for several decades. Our graduate schools are pretty much dominated by foreign students, many of whom return to their home countries, because they are booming, as we are struggling, like a blind man trying to solve a Rubik's cube puzzle. Why is this happening to us?

We no longer produce enough high school grads with a good enough education to go to college, especially to be able to pursue the much needed and better paying science and engineering careers that our industries need. We spend the second most money in the world per student in primary and secondary education, but our results are 32nd to 48th in the world. Second highest spender, producing the 32nd to 48th result in the world in math and science. Tennessee is close to the bottom in our country, and Knox County is a very good example of why.

Companies that need qualified workers at all levels, do not have time to wait ten years. They move to a place or country that has well enough educated workers. They will go out of business if they do not. We lost a lot of jobs, and it is not only the economy's fault. Our poor and declining education system damaged us more, than any other enemy could have. there is a movement to turn it around, but it will take a long time, after the primary and secondary school performance shows definite improvement to feed our science and engineering universities.

There is no point in putting blinders on and believe that all is OK with our schools, especially here. Schools will need major changes in management structure, reporting, openness with the public, getting rid of overly bloated central management organizations, and putting all that overhead money into the schools.

I would not give them a red cent more, until we see a turnaround in ACT scores, the best measure of what the students learned from grade 1 to 12. The tax paying public has to tighten their belts, when the tax spending organizations just want more money and produce bad results. Somehow, we have been too dumb to notice this.

I think the spend-spend-spend attitude is an old one left over from the times several decades ago when we were doing well. It is further complicated by a declining secondary education, who do not understand this picture. And they vote too!

We must cut spending everywhere. We must inform people better. And cuts are also important for those who exist on tax dollars, instead of paying them - until this entire macro trend turns around.

We and our politicians do only things to get votes - from anyone, including illegal aliens. It is up to us, the people to recognize where we are, not listen to the propaganda of spenders of our hard earned tax dollars, and to better inform the entire public about what we have to do and why.

Bird_dog's picture

I'm with you there

Not blaming easy credit - but it's a fact. Back in the day, we HAD to put 20% down and stick to 1 or 1 1/2 times income for housing. We too have been hit up by family with higher incomes, higher debt, and higher lifestyles. As treasurer in a few organizations, it was always interesting who's checks bounced - small checks - but big houses, big vacations.

I think I heard somewhere, that the new status symbol is being debt-free. We simply bought our affordable, retirement home first and, now that the kids are gone, it's roomy and paid for.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

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Dear Bird, I think you, my mother-in-law, and my late mother are the only women I've known in recent years to have actually paid off a house!

Warning

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick the flowers in other people's gardens
And learn to spit

You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.

Bird_dog's picture

love it!

Especially the spitting part.

25 years ago when I was laid up with a broken ankle and we were technically bankrupt from the drop in La. real estate, I read "Your Money or Your Life" and it changed my life. We have always been frugal, Scots-Irish and all, but YMOYL gave me some stucture and purpose. My kids are mostly cheap too, shopped at Goodwill all through high school and never had an available car nice enough to motivate them to get their license.

Take care!

bizgrrl's picture

Interesting. Back in the day

Interesting. Back in the day (around 1979) we put 3% down (I believe) on our first house, FHA loan, which was 10% interest. We put 5% down on our second house (1989), conventional loan, which was again 10% interest.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

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We built our home in 1999. My husband kept looking at plans for a bigger home, but I talked him into our little rancher, heavy on the covered porches and patios on three sides. That extensive outdoor living space, which we enjoy nine months out of the year, came in at $15 a square foot and I furnished all of it as if it were indoor rooms.

Comparing our construction loan, which converted to a conventional loan at completion, against that first assessment for taxes, we had 25% in the home/acreage at completion. We nabbed 5 1/4% fixed.

We own four cars, three of them paid for. We have never owned any new car (and neither did our parents) and we have never financed more than two months income on any car.

I carry a three-ring binder to the grocery store(s) to help me track coupons and inventories on hand. I don't buy what I need, so much as I buy what's on sale. What I need should already be at home, purchased previously on sale.

I adore Goodwill--but only on half price weekends.

I keep a rudimentary personal financial statement on the front and back of a 4 x 6 index card, in pencil, and update it weekly on Fridays.

I am exceedingly...efficient. :-)

bizgrrl's picture

rudimentary personal

rudimentary personal financial statement

When we were first married, for the first year or so, we did not manage our money well at all. It was, to me anyway, a shock to be dependent on our lowly income versus our parents supporting us before marriage. We were given a blank personal financial statement to use as a guide to help us better manage our money. It really did help.

Bird_dog's picture

Quicken

We first had a double-entry paper system - before computers, then Home Accountant, then Andrew Tobias, finally Quicken. Have kept track of nearly every dollar since 1977 (even before Your Money or Your Life).

It is a powerful thing to know where your money goes!

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

We can't know where we need to go until we know where we are.

bizgrrl's picture

Andrew Tobias, a good member

Andrew Tobias, a good member of the Democratic party.

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