Fri
Nov 5 2010
07:13 pm

MPC will consider the proposed Hillside/Ridgetop Protection Plan at its meeting on Wednesday, November 10 (meeting on Wed. this month because of the Thursday holiday).

This is an important plan, and decision-makers need your input.

MPC Commissioner contact information can be found at (link...).

slapshot's picture

Input? It's a stupid illegal

Input? It's a stupid illegal plan that will kill jobs. The 15 to 25 percent grade restriction makes Midway impossible to develop. It is an anti-development plan in the middle of a recession. If this dumb plan is passed MPC and County Commission will have variances on every project with slope. BZA will hear variances turned down. And the County will have to defend countless lawsuits. Is that what you chowder heads want? The height of hypocrisy is that the City County Building couldn't be built under this dumb plan. It makes those who can grant variances King Makers.

You people ask a good lawyer about the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment before you waste taxpayer money defending unneeded lawsuits because of this stupid plan.

Read:

Lucas v. South Carolina Coastal Council

Penn Cent. Transp. Co. v. City of New York

Rachel's picture

Thanks for the comment. I

Thanks for the comment. I will pass it along to the other planning Commissioners.

Actually, I don't believe that's true about Midway. TDC has said over and over that one of their criteria for property is that it be as level as possible - which makes sense. Why would commercial developers make their lives more difficult by trying to develop on steep slopes if they can help it? I don't think enough of Midway falls into the 15-25% slope range to impact it much, if at all.

There's very little the plan would codify into law. That would come later, with accompanying ordinances. So the plan itself won't create the call for "variances." (And I think you may be a bit confused about the relationships between MPC, BZA, and Commission, but I won't go into all that here.)

As for the cases you cite, I have read them. In fact, I studided them in planning school. Lucas, for example, says the state can't put restrictions on land that deprive the owner of ALL value of his property (not some, all). In that particular case the state of South Carolina had declared Lucas's coastal land totally off limits for development/use of any kind (to cut down on coastal erosion). The Hillside/Ridgetop Plan doesn't even come close to passing that test. It restricts HOW development can be done, not bans it.

The second case contradicts the point you're trying to make. IIRC, in the New York case the the Supreme Court found that the city’s restrictions on land use for Grand Central Terminal was not a "taking" - that they permitted the owner's reasonable use of the site and also allowed the owner a reasonable return on his investment. That is, that the City COULD impose those particular restriction on use of the terminal.

And BTW, thanks for calling me a chowderhead. I think that's a first and I kinda enjoyed it.

slapshot's picture

"As for the cases you cite, I

"As for the cases you cite, I have read them. In fact, I studided them in planning school. Lucas, for example, says the state can't put restrictions on land that deprive the owner of ALL value of his property (not some, all). In that particular case the state of South Carolina had declared Lucas's coastal land totally off limits for development/use of any kind (to cut down on coastal erosion). The Hillside/Ridgetop Plan doesn't even come close to passing that test. It restricts HOW development can be done, not bans it."

Are you an attorney? I didn't think so. Why in the hell has the MPC attorney not filed an opinion on this? Don't shall or may this. This is serious litigation we have to pay for. Don't think there will not be a serious look at MPC if this for any reason passes in this form. This is a very bad plan that should not see the light of day in this form. There are multiple law suits that will be filed the moment a taking takes place.

Rachel's picture

No, I'm not an attorney, I'm

No, I'm not an attorney, I'm a chowderhead, remember? :) Are you an attorney?

However, I am able to read the findings in legal cases (and actually, the Lucas case is more complicated; I just stripped it down to its bare essentials). How do you read the findings in the Lucas case?

Lisa Starbuck's picture

Midway Slopes and Constraints

TDC has said over and over that one of their criteria for property is that it be as level as possible - which makes sense. Why would commercial developers make their lives more difficult by trying to develop on steep slopes if they can help it? I don't think enough of Midway falls into the 15-25% slope range to impact it much, if at all.

You are exactly correct that TDC (and MPC) have said "over and over" that their criteria for selection of an industrial or business park site is a slope 6% or less (among other things) as you can see from TDC's presentation in January 2009 to the Carter Community (page 20). Even MPC has repeatedly said that the site is "mostly level" but if you actually visit the site, you have to wonder if they've ever even laid eyes on it.

But don't take my word for it - here's the actual skinny on Midway's slope situation from a KGIS analysis. As you can see, the majority of the site is hardly "mostly level" -- 75% of the site has a slope greater than 6%. About 20% of the property has a slope above 15%.

Red lines on this companion map from KGIS conveys the steeper slopes and sinkholes. How much of this property that will actually be developable irrespective of the Hillside plan is a very good question.

By the time they avoid the sinkholes and the steeper slopes, put in roads, the KUB substation, TVA's easement and power station, a 30 acre dripfield for each building, landscape buffers, and the promised "green" berms and stormwater controls, just how much land would actually be gained?

Is it really worth the financial and environmental sacrifices that Midway will take to wind up with some more 20 acre sites at best? It's not like we don't have plenty of those scattered around Knox County already.

If you look at TDC's concept drawing (page 25), it doesn't show many of the above items that they said will be included on the site and some of the buildings are laid out directly over sinkholes and ravines.

Remember, we paid approximately $10 million for this land and TDC has estimated they will spend another $17 million to develop Phase I. Just Phase I - no comment from them so far on how much the other phases will cost, although Mike Edwards has said in the past that it costs around $100,000 per acre to develop and that's without their sewer problem. Assuming that number is still valid, Midway could cost taxpayers $37,000,000 or more plus sewer by the time it's said and done. All other issues aside, it just doesn't make good business sense.

Rachel's picture

Midway

If possible, I'd like to keep this thread focused on the Hillside/Ridgetop Plan.

Lisa Starbuck's picture

I agree

But I'm not the person who brought up Midway, nor the person who posted incorrect information about how level it is.

Did the MPC commissioners attend and participate in the City Council workshop on the Hillside/Ridgetop plan, or are there other plans to educate MPC commissioners who seemed to have questions and misgivings before the vote?

Rachel's picture

At least 10 of the MPC

At least 10 of the MPC Commissioners participated in the joint workshop with Council. There will be another workshop at agenda review.

If you check the agenda packet, you will see that staff has already distributed some additional info about 15-25% slopes.

Lisa Starbuck's picture

Changes to the Plan?

If you check the agenda packet, you will see that staff has already distributed some additional info about 15-25% slopes.

Thanks for this information. As far as I know, MPC staff has not informed the task force that they are suggesting changes to the plan before it goes to MPC, so this is very concerning.

Rachel's picture

I did not interpret the

I did not interpret the things in the document from staff you are referencing as a recommendataion. I read it as alternatives that could be considered. Those were included in response to concerns from several Commissioners.

I have a couple of questions about just exactly what some of it means, and will be calling to ask on Monday.

I will also say that I found the supplementary information very helpful - I had been trying to get a grasp of just how much we are proposing to change what we do now. I very much respect all the work the task force has done, but I'm happy to have input from the professionals on staff as well.

sugarfatpie's picture

Wow, this is great stuff

Wow, this is great stuff Lisa.
Thanks for posting this!
Alex

slapshot's picture

"I don't think enough of

"I don't think enough of Midway falls into the 15-25% slope range to impact it much, if at all."

Do you all at MPC know what you are doing? Because it doesn't look like it. Stop blaming everything on MPC staff. If they are as bad as you allege fire them and get some competent people. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is scratching. How you can at the same time present Midway and the Slope and Ridge plan shows a serious competency problem at MPC. MPC has become part Chamber/TDC lackey and activist anti-development wackos. What is wrong with you people? Midway is cost prohibitive. The Slope and Ridge is a job killer. Doing both of these at once shows the great problems at MPC.

yrag's picture

grade restriction?

There is no grade restriction in this plan. What are you talking about? 15-25% is where the current slope protection area starts in the sector plans. I suggest you also read the Growth Policy Plan, the General Plan and any one of the many Sector Plans. Heck, you could even read the 1930 Comprehensive Plan for Knoxville and see mention of the need to protect slopes starting at 15 percent. Also, I'm pretty sure the crappy economy is the primary job killer right now, not some "plan." When have we ever followed "plans" in this area anyway? I'm not scared of some "plan."

Rachel's picture

Does anybody else have any

Does anybody else have any input on the Plan? I'm pretty sure I understand how slapshot feels. :)

smithrob2010's picture

I saw the replay of the city

I saw the replay of the city council workshop from last week, a few days ago. The director of MPC, said that as currently written, this plan would directly affect over 62,000 parcels of land in Knox County, and double or triple that number if you include the adjacent properties impacted by this plan.

And they have no plans to notify the owners of those parcels, of this plans impact on their property rights.

WOW

Rachel's picture

Just a bit more info: The

Just a bit more info:

The plan would "affect" that many parcels because that many would have portions in the slope protection area, but it doesn't change what we recommend now on nearly so many.

For example, the low density housing limits - which affect the vast majority of those parcels - are the same in the plan as the ones currently in use except for slopes 40% or greater.

And in all of Knox County there are only 163 acres vacant and zoned commercial on slopes 15-25%.

So it just kind of depends on how you define "impact."

As for notification, there have been ten or so well-publicized public meetings - thanks partly to Lumpy's shenanigans :) - and all the task force meetings were sunshined. The plan has been posted on the MPC website for months. There has been one MPC meeting discussion of the plan (it was postponed till this month) and one joint Council/MPC workshop. It's not like the work has been taking place in dark, back rooms somewhere.

If the plan passes MPC, it then goes to City Council and County Commission, where there will be opportunity for more input and discussion.

slapshot's picture

"And in all of Knox County

"And in all of Knox County there are only 163 acres vacant and zoned commercial on slopes 15-25%."

I'd like to see proof of that statement. You know what a phony statement that is and you should be ashamed to play word games like that. How many acres are zoned AG that have slopes 15-25%? You don't want to answer that do you? Nothing is zoned commercial until it is time to zone it commercial.

That is a disingenuous trick. You know it is the amount of land in AG that matters.

Rachel's picture

Commercial zone

I'd like to see proof of that statement. You know what a phony statement that is and you should be ashamed to play word games like that.

Look, I don't want to argue with you. I got that information from staff analysis. It's included in the agenda packet for Wednesday's meeting. But actually I did get it a bit wrong - 529 acres are vacant and zoned commercial; 163 are vacant and proposed for commercial in the sector plans. My apologies, but either way, it's a small percentage of the total area within 15-25%.

You can read it yourself. In fact, if you're interested in the plan, I urge you to read it and the staff recommendation.

As for the ag zone, it's certainly possible that some folks who own land zoned ag hope to develop it as commercial someday. But they have no right to do so now - nor do they have any absolute expectation that the land would be rezoned if they asked. A rezoning might go through, it might not. No one has a right to have a rezoning approved.

Again, I don't want to argue with anyone. I'm just presenting information here.

smithrob2010's picture

According to Joe Hultquist,

According to Joe Hultquist, one of the ways to make this Plan law, is to create Zoning or another Overlay district in Knox County.

Rachel, according to the plan, the plan would directly impact almost 38% of the Total Land area in Knox County. This "Plan" would impact over 62,000 parcels directly and over 130,000 more indirectly.

Call it what it is, a Land Grab by MPC.

For goodness sake, this plan won't even stop another Water Tower from being developed on any Ridge line in the County, if KUB wants it Done. And this was the main reason the Plan got started in the first place.

This is a Job killer, an economy killer and it will assure, that very few additonal developments are EVER build in the County again.

And BTW, forget about Midway, almost 2/3 of the land in the Midway Park area is over 15% slope.

Rachel's picture

it will assure, that very few

it will assure, that very few additonal developments are EVER build in the County again.

Page 31 in the plan address the question of how much land we have available for development outside the proposed hillside/ridgetop protection area. The analysis shows that if the proposed densities were implemented, 82,000 dwelling units could be built on land affected by the Hillside/Ridgetop Protection Plan. In addition, there is enough vacant land with slope <15% to accommodate approx. 103,000 dwelling units. That's 200,000 or so new dwelling units that could be built in Knox County UNDER THE PLAN. And that doesn't include Farragut or the South Waterfront, or redevelopment of any existing property.

In addition, the analysis in appendix C shows that there is now approx. 1900 vacant acres or rural residential land available for commercial development. The would accomodate around 21 million sq. ft. of new commercial space, or 175 new commercial centers.

Your assertion seems a bit exaggerated.

And BTW, forget about Midway, almost 2/3 of the land in the Midway Park area is over 15% slope.

I admit I don't know the exact #s on Midway, and I really don't want to make this plan about Midway. But with you saying 2/3 of it is over 15% slope and Lisa Starbuck saying that 20% of it is over 15% slope, one of you is wrong - by a lot.

smithrob2010's picture

Rachel, I may be mistaken,

Rachel,

I may be mistaken, but in the Work Shop last week, at least one if not two of your fellow MPC commissioners refered to Midway as being unbuildable under this plan, and one said that over half the land was more than 15% slope.

All of the numbers you site, are based on the maximum possible allowable footprints of developments, regardless of the cost to develop them under this plan. You seem to be forgetting that Developers need to be able to Profit from these indeavors, or they will not be built.

All businesses related to Construction have been closing down in huge numbers for over three years now, because of the economy. If MPC adds this plan to the mix, you can rest assured that this industry will never recover in this County.

Rachel's picture

If MPC adds this plan to the

All of the numbers you site, are based on the maximum possible allowable footprints of developments regardless of the cost to develop them under this plan.

Well, yes. The idea is to show that there is plenty of developable land in the county w/o using all the steepest slopes. And isn't it cheaper to develop on flatter land?

If MPC adds this plan to the mix, you can rest assured that this industry will never recover in this County.

First of all, the plan is not a done deal if MPC passes it. It still has to be passed by County Commission and City Council.

Second, it's a PLAN. Very little of it can be implemented without new/amended ordinances, all of which would have to also go through the legislative bodies.

Third, the development industry has been able to survive quite well in other places with similar hillside/ridgetop restrictions. Can you tell me why Knox County will be different?

Finally, do have any evidence at all - other than your opinion - of your assertion above? I'm willing to listen, but I need facts,not just fears.

yarg's picture

slapshot don't know...

slapshot should quit playing hockey and learn to read and develop some critical thinking skills.

smalc's picture

I don't have a dog in this

I don't have a dog in this fight, and maybe it is the plan somewhere, but I am curious if the calculation of the slope is defined relative to a horizontal distance. You can't really assign a slope percentage without defining over what horizontal distance you are looking at.

It would be more straightforward with a ridge-side (fairly consistent slope), but hillsides and sinkholes would be somewhat subjective.

rikki's picture

For the maps in the published

For the maps in the published plan, slopes were determined using the 10m USGS National Elevation Dataset. In determining the Hillside Protection Area, the criteria were slopes of 15 percent or greater over at least 5 acres.

Another consideration was soil type, with regard to likelihood of slippage.

Up Goose Creek's picture

distance

Good point Smalc, you can have a lot that is fairly level then slopes off steeply. Overall you could be looking at a slope of 25% +, while in reality it is a portion at 10% and a portion at 50%.

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