Discussing:
- Goldman exec: clients are "muppets" (7 replies)
- Education Week: "New K-12 Advocacy Groups Wield State-level Clout" (17 replies)
- Shelley Breeding (26 replies)
- From the "you're kidding, right?" file... (4 replies)
- Willie Nelson + Chipotle + The Scientist (1 reply)
- Ask questions, shop around, save money on telecomm (5 replies)
- Reading speed test (1 reply)
- In Black and White: Resegregation Indisputable per Annual TN Charter Schools Rpt (2 replies)
- Background so far: Creation of TEAM/APEX teacher evaluation model and legislative pushback (55 replies)
- "We abandoned the idyll of Brigadoon and settled instead for Lord of the Flies." (2 replies)
- Inaugural Internet Hall of Fame (5 replies)
- Verizon cuts price on Razr MAXX (6 replies)
Upcoming events:
- May 19 2012 - 1:00pm (2 days 12 hours from now)
User login
Navigation
TN Progressive
- 5th and Garfield: past and present (Enclave)
- A paler shade of green (Enclave)
- Can we clone Bernie Sanders?? (Left Wing Cracker)
- Candidate for Property Assessor, David Morgan, Sent Out His Top Ten List (RoaneViews)
- Technically True But Still Utter BS (Southern Beale)
- Tea Party For Obama (Southern Beale)
- Voter Fraud in the Legislature (RoaneViews)
- Al Gore, Inductee Internet Hall of Fame (Waiting for the Republican Apology...Still Waiting...) (Kitchen Table)
- A Tribute to our Veterans - 2012 Memorial Weekend Events, City of Harriman / American Legion Post 53 (RoaneViews)
- Whipped off a quick email to Erica Gilmore before the start of Metro Council (Enclave)
- Governor Signs Bills...I Have No Idea What Some of Them Mean (RoaneViews)
- He vs She – patience (Domestic Psychology)
- O Captain! My Captain! (Newscoma)
- The Police Association fights back! (Left Wing Cracker)
- About That Motion to Intervene… (Vibinc)
- More Romney Economics (Left Wing Cracker)
TN Politics
- Bills Signed by Governor, 5/16/12 (Tom Humphrey)
- Trying to stop bullying (Cara Kumari)
- You're welcome, Virginia (Post Politics)
- Pawn promotion (Post Politics)
- Hasalm Signs Budget Bill; Says He's OK With Funding Virginia Museum (Tom Humphrey)
- Frankly my dear (Post Politics)
- They call it the Rising Sun (Post Politics)
- Former Judge Faces New Charges of Covering Up Mistress (Tom Humphrey)
- Legal, Payment Questions Linger on Welfare Drug Testing Bill (Tom Humphrey)
- Lamar To Be Decorated by Emperor of Japan (Tom Humphrey)
- Weak Tea (obviously) (Post Politics)
- The Common Core Concept (Cara Kumari)
Local Media Blogs
- Knoxville's "Self-Evident Truths" Portraits Online (Metro Pulse)
- Arby's building gets rock-star treatment (Josh Flory)
- Scott West Market Square update (Josh Flory)
- Help pours in for evicted senior (Jack McElroy)
- Ad firm signs lease for Old City rehab (Josh Flory)
- Wednesday briefing (Josh Flory)
- Gay Street building sold (Josh Flory)
- The Tomato Head To Close Maryville Location, Open in West Knoxville (Metro Pulse)
- Nellie McKay at the Bijou (Metro Pulse)
- Maybe newsrooms need to kick the front page habit (Jack Lail)
- Bearden girl wins $5,000 1st Amendment prize (Jack McElroy)
- Burgers and Burritos, Oh My! (Metro Pulse)
Local Paper
- Woman injured in Jefferson County shooting (KNS News)
- Jurors set to decide fate of defendants in Sevier mortgage fraud case (KNS News)
- Authorities stage one-day security blitz at truck scales (KNS News)
- Knoxville sign ordinance receives public scrutiny (KNS News)
- Man admits lying in wait to kill federal administrative law judge (KNS News)
- Tennessee 15th in private equity investment (KNS Business)
- Scott County to close hospital (KNS Business)
- Silver Spoon Cafe looking for new location (KNS Business)
- Scripps Networks touts year to come at shareholders meeting (KNS Business)
- Solar farm powered up in Oak Ridge (KNS Business)
Local TV News
- Residents upset about prostitutes in North Knoxville (WATE)
- Dog bites on the rise in Tennessee (WATE)
- 6 tips to help sell your home (WATE)
- Campbell road superintendent proposes alternate earthslide detour (WBIR)
- Knoxville church remembers couple killed in crash (WBIR)
- Cold Case: Investigators link five unsolved Knox County murder cases (WBIR)
- Woman shot in Chestnut Hill home invasion (WBIR)
- Knox County commissioners consider mayor's budget (WATE)
- Dry, rainless spring causes issues for East Tennessee farmers (WATE)
- Third Creek shows progress following mulch facility fire (WBIR)
- Revolutionary surgery for knees and hips (WVLT)
- Police: Homeowner answered knock with shotgun (WVLT)
State News
- Prep results from May 16 (Commercial Appeal)
- Stanton’s 2-run HR helps Marlins beat Braves, 8-4 (Times Free Press)
- Blaze in Downtown Memphis injures one (Commercial Appeal)
- Bankruptcy court OKs $74.3M in financing for Pinnacle Airlines (Commercial Appeal)
- Dalton man convicted of home invasion charges (Times Free Press)
- Memphis economic development agency will move into the Tower at Peabody Place (Commercial Appeal)
- MLGW says some utility customers targeted by ID theft scam (Commercial Appeal)
- Chattanooga-based CBL buys North Dakota mall for $91.4 million (Times Free Press)
- Robin Copp announced as new principal of Signal Mountain Middle High School (Times Free Press)
- Ringgold advances in Class AAA baseball playoffs (Times Free Press)
- Attorney: Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s estranged wife found dead in New York (Tennessean)
- Vanderbilt running back to transfer (Tennessean)
Wire Reports
- Afghanistan mulls Islamic bonds, fearing Western cash cutback (Yahoo Politics)
- Census: Minorities now surpass whites in US births (Yahoo Politics)
- JPMorgan's future losses at the mercy of an obscure index (Yahoo Business)
- Venezuelan-born academic named president of MIT (Yahoo News)
- Analysis: U.S. bond bulls not ready to call off the charge (Yahoo Business)
- Data suggests drug treatment can lower U.S. crime (Yahoo News)
- Global shares recover a bit, though fear on Greece remains (Yahoo Business)
- California biker gets life term for murder of Hells Angels leader (Yahoo News)
- Third suspect in slaying of U.S. Marine's wife pleads not guilty (Yahoo News)
- Super Bowl winners New York Giants get "Big Blue" rings (Yahoo News)
- J.C. Penney stock has worst fall ever (Yahoo Business)
- Fears over Greece's political and financial crisis (Yahoo Business)
- Crossroads announcing $25 million ad push (Yahoo Politics)
- SPIN METER: Rivals airbrush anti-Romney words (Yahoo Politics)
- Role unlikely for George W. Bush in Romney bid (Yahoo Politics)
Site Statistics
Last 7 days:
- Posts: 23
- Comments: 286
- Visits: 8,386
- Pageviews: 20,103
- Posts: 127
- Comments: 1360
- Visits: 39,827
- Pageviews: 98,769
Popular today
Popular this week
- The APEX fiasco and diversionary tactics from KNS
- Background so far: Creation of TEAM/APEX teacher evaluation model and legislative pushback
- It's OK to bully gay people if you don't know they're gay?
- Positions to add to that list of APEX victims
- Haslam: Vouchers are coming
- Gun-crazy
- Cash Mob: Thress Nursery today
TN Progressive
- BlountViews
- Cup of Joe Powell
- Left Wing Cracker
- Newscoma
- Out of the Blue
- RoaneViews
- Sean Braisted
- Southern Beale
- TN Citizen Action
- TN Talking Points
- Tiny Cat Pants
- TN Guerilla Women
- Vibinc
- View From My Kitchen Table
- WhitesCreek Journal
Nearby:
- AC Entertainment
- Agrarian Urbanite
- Blount Dems
- Bottom Line
- Craig Thomas
- Daily Pulse
- David Oatney
- Discover ET
- Domestic Psychology
- Ellen Smith
- Fletch
- Frank Murphy
- Home/Work
- Instapundit
- Jack Lail
- Jack McElroy
- Jim Stovall
- Julie Apple
- Knox Dems
- KnoxBlab
- Knoxify
- Knoxvillager
- Les Jones
- Lynn Point Records
- MamaPundit
- Michael Silence
- Mike Donila
- MoxCarm Blue Streak
- Mushy's Moochings
- Outdoor Knoxville
- P.E.N. Studio
- Pittman Properties
- Political Leverage
- Property Scope
- Reality Me
- Rikki Hall
- Rob Huddleston
- School Matters
- Stacey Campfield
- Stop Alcoa Parkway
- Stuck inside Knoxville
- Suzy Trotta
- Tom Humphrey
- Tri Cities
Beyond:
- Andy Axel
- Daily Docket
- Democratic Talk Radio
- Enclave
- Ginger Snaps
- Post Politics
- Quiet Life
- Smart City Memphis
- TN Dems
- TN Ticket
- TN Trivia
- TN Women's Caucus
- Bob Stepno
- Facing South
- Lovable Liberal
- Newsrack
- Wandering Hillbilly
At large:
- Agonist
- Alterdestiny
- Atrios
- Burnt Orange Report
- Buzzflash
- College Dems
- Common Cause
- Crooks and Liars
- Daily Kos
- Democratic Strategist
- Democrats.org
- Digby's Hullabaloo
- Ezra Klein
- The Fix
- Huffington Post
- Liberal Oasis
- Media Matters
- MyDD
- Open Secrets
- Pam's House Blend
- Political Wire
- Politico
- Progressive States
- Seeing the Forest
- Skippy the Bush Kangaroo
- Suburban Guerrilla
- Talk Left
- Talking Points Memo
- Think Progress
- Truthdig
- Truthout

Rice: "Knox County doesn't
Rice: "Knox County doesn't have the resources for that much creativity at this time."
Wow. How inspiring. And what a great recruiting slogan for the Chamber.
Redneck and proud!
So disgusted by this comment. Like we don't need yer book readin in this town!
Interesting question Frank
Interesting question Frank asks. Since Burchett filched on the severance agreement, are these folks technically still employed?
I wonder if Frank had the
I wonder if Frank had the 'agreement' in writing.
My understanding is that
My understanding is that Frank and the inspiring Mr. Rice had some conversations over the summer, which may have contributed to him believing that he was indeed on Burchett's dismiss list.
Also, from what I gather everything regarding Frank's resignation was verbal except Ragsdale's announcement.
I think this stinks...
This man was told he was going to be fired. He was offered a chance to resign with a severance package. Then the severance package was revoked, leaving him unable to draw unemployment compensation since he resigned. This was a cheap ass trick by both the out-going and in-coming administrations, and they should both be sued by those employees that got the shaft. But, according to the article, Mr. Frank and the others have already said they weren't interested in suing. Burchett should do the right thing and revoke the resignations, and then lay the employees off or whatever solution makes them eligible for unemployment. It was not fair to take away a severance package that was offered to them so that they would leave voluntarily rather than making the in-coming administration suffer a little bad PR by having to fire them outright.
What government body
What government body relegates this sort of thing?
Knox County
Knox County
curious
ok, so let's say he was fired by burchett? he still wouldn't be eligible for severance or unemployment. what's the difference? only this way he got to say he 'quit' versus being fired.
According to Frank, as quoted
According to Frank, as quoted in the KNS story, resigning made him ineligible for unemployment. Why do you think he's ineligible either way?
If you are fired thru no fault of your own...
for whatever reason: meaning that you did not have a poor performance history or that you were insubordinate or stole from your employer or any myriad other "for cause" reasons, then you are eligible for unemployment. Your employer can't just decide he doesn't like you and toss you out; they have to give a valid reason for firing you in which you are at fault or you can draw unemployment. That's to prevent someone from being fired for being black, gay, old, female, ugly, fat, or whatever. There's a difference between being a political appointee and having been hired to fill a position within the county government for a job.
I don't think that the Director of the County Library System is a political appointee type position. You actually have to be qualified to run a library to hold the job. It's not like Joe Schmoe can come in off the street and know how to manage the library systems. That's why universities all over this country offer degrees in library sciences.
Just like years ago I couldn't be fired from my dinky little job as a cashier at a local car wash/convenience store so that the manager could hire her best friend. I got unemployment and she got reamed by the state department of employment for lying on her paperwork to make it look like I didn't show up for work even though she clearly forged my signature seeing as how she misspelled my name not once but twice in different ways on different papers that purportedly were warnings for being tardy or absent without an excuse.
Labor laws protect employees from whims of employers that just arbitrarily decide to fire someone because they don't like their politics or whatever.
true but only to an extent
true but only to a certain extent. Tennessee is a "hire at will state" which is also a "fire at will" state and there is a lot more wiggle room here than in say California on what employers are allowed to get away with. Weiutrich or however you spell his name is screwed. The TBI is all over his department, there's so much stuff there, they could fire him no problem. If even half of what they say about Frank's pcard statements are true they wouldn't have a problem there either. I don't know anything about this Dupes character, but it seems to me that if you want to find dirt in Knox County, you don't have to look very far. Again, I understand the employees being upset that they were told they'd get a severance and now they aren't going to get it. But that's Ragsdales fault for promising them something he shouldn't/and apparently legally Couldn't promise them in the first place. Burchett could have come in day one and fired all 3. At least this way they got to quit instead of being fired. Either way, the end result is still the same.
If even half of what they say
If even half of what they say about Frank's pcard statements are true they wouldn't have a problem there either.
You know, I keep seeing references to this, but nobody ever details WHAT "they say" nor WHO "they" are.
Nor have I seen anything reported about it in the media.
I've asked others who mentioned this for evidence and never gotten a response.
Maybe I've just missed something, in which case I'd appreciate being clued it. Just WHAT did Mr. Frank do to abuse his p-card, WHO says so, and based on WHAT evidence?
Thanks.
If even half of what they say
If even half of what they say about Frank's pcard statements are true they wouldn't have a problem there either.
Libel - 2b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means
If there is no source, other than what they say, how about just not saying it at all?
So...what happens next?
I'm as confused as Frank...
Donila's KNS story didn't tell us to whom this e-mail from Frank was directed.
Are we to assume that it was directed to Mayor Burchett (and copied to commissioners, maybe)? Is/are the recipient(s) to issue a response to Frank? Will we know what that response was?
Frank's question as to whether he should now consider his resignation to be revoked sounds like a rhetorical one, but is he actually intending to go to work or to stay home work on Tuesday???
Of the three county employees perplexed by this very odd dismissal, I most regret that Frank has been treated this way. Of the three, it's Frank whom I can say with the highest degree of certainty has done an excellent job.
I think the story said that
I think the story said that the email was to Tim Burchett and Mike Hammond.
Mea culpa
Sorry--an oversight on my part.
I hope both copy KNS with their responses.
Whenever a new President
Whenever a new President takes office talking heads babble about "peaceful transfer of power," noting how we sophisticated Americans need not suffer through the pillaging and violence that often accompany power shifts in less democratic nations. It's a null narrative, a way to say, "Nothing interesting is happening, and that's so very good!"
There is a principle embedded in this narrative, the notion that the office is more important than the officeholder. Burchett and Jarret have both demonstrated disregard for this idea by dishonoring an agreement made by a County Mayor during his sworn tenure. This is different than the other changes Burchett has implemented because those are changes in policy and organization, whereas canceling the severance agreements reaches backwards in time to before Burchett's swearing in.
Jarret's decision is especially troubling since it not only creates the possibility of retroactive nullification of earlier severance agreements, but also sets up a gambit that could seriously handcuff a County Mayor's ability to conduct his or her duties. The Charter grants broad powers rather than exhaustively enumerated powers, and if a law director or judge can choose a narrow power like negotiating a severance agreement and use the Charter's failure to enumerate that narrow power as grounds for revoking the duty, the Mayor can be micromanaged down to a powerless figurehead.
You are mistaken about a lot
You are mistaken about a lot of things. Ragsdale could have written the check the same day. Ragsdale never wrote a single severance check. This meant the checks would be signed by Burchett. So Burchett had every right to defend himself against this. So it wasn't retroactive. The fact that not a single one of these people will sue should convey what this was about. It was a cheap political trick by Ragsdale. Burchett has done an excellent job correcting the poor policies of the past. You also left out that Dupes had no confirmation from Burchett that Franks would lose his job. So her part in this mess could have been a firing offense.
You are mistaken about a lot
You are mistaken about a lot of things.
None of which you've specified. I said nothing about who signed checks nor about what Dupes knew, so I can not have been mistaken about either. You are just inventing new information and pretending it is relevant. Really, you haven't addressed anything I said.
The whole idea of the office being more important than the officeholder clearly eludes you. What happened is the rightful mayor reached a routine and legal severance agreement with county employees, then the new rightful mayor refused to honor that agreement, abetted by an opportunistic ruling from the law director. The office of County Mayor has been cheapened by the new officeholder's refusal to honor an agreement made by his predecessor.
"What happened is the
"What happened is the rightful mayor reached a routine and legal severance agreement with county employees, then the new rightful mayor refused to honor that agreement, abetted by an opportunistic ruling from the law director."
Where did you get your law degree? Other than your opinion, what do you have to prove this was either legal, routine, or legitimate?
Other than your opinion, what
Other than your opinion, what do you have to prove this was either legal, routine, or legitimate?
It is a fact that severance payments have been made to numerous county employees over the years. Severance agreements are common and routine in government and throughout the business world. My "opinion" on this matter is utterly mundane.
The onus is on you (or Jarret) to explain what is different with these three agreements. It is Burchett who is doing something out of the ordinary, not Ragsdale.
"It is Burchett who is doing
"It is Burchett who is doing something out of the ordinary, not Ragsdale."
I have never heard of a three month severance in Knox County. What are you saying, that is normal? Show us another time that happened.
Solipsist.
Solipsist.
If the issue were the size of
If the issue were the size of the severance payout, then Burchett could ask these three if they'd be willing to renegotiate their departure terms. That's not what he's done. Jarret told them they'd have to sue to get anything. Basically, you've pushed the conversation into irrelevance.
The onus remains on you. Are you capable of formulating a positive defense of your position?
"The onus remains on you. Are
"The onus remains on you. Are you capable of formulating a positive defense of your position?"
Two weeks is not three months. A Mayor shouldn't sandbag the next Mayor's budget and try to get him to write the check for something illegal.
As usual, doesn't know the
As usual, doesn't know the facts or the issue itself.
A Mayor shouldn't sandbag the
A Mayor shouldn't sandbag the next Mayor's budget and try to get him to write the check for something illegal
There is nothing illegal about a severance agreement. They are routine and common. In order for Jarret's argument to hold water, he needs to explain why severance should be singled out from all other similar powers of hiring, contracting, etc. He has not done that, nor have you.
Here is what the Charter says about the Mayor's powers: "The Mayor shall be the head of the Executive Branch of Knox County Government, responsible for the exercising of all executive and administrative functions of the County Government and shall be the chief fiscal officer of the County."
It also says this in Article 1, Section 1.01: "The Knox County Government shall exercise any power or perform any function which is not denied by the Constitution of the State of Tennessee. It is the intent of this Charter that limitations on the powers of County Government shall be strictly construed, and that grants of power to County Government shall be liberally construed."
Jarret has taken the exact opposite stance, so really, he needs to find some basis in state law for denying the Mayor the power to negotiate a severance package. The absence of any mention of severance in the Charter is an inadequate basis for denying that power. A plain reading of the Charter shows that the Mayor has broad powers to conduct his duties.
The onus is on you to find something in the Charter or state law that prohibits the Mayor from negotiating a severance package. If both are silent (as Jarret contends), the Mayor should be free to exercise that power. That's not my opinion; it's what the Charter says.
Hoyt, where did you go? If
Hoyt, where did you go? If you just drop this conversation instead of admitting that I've got a point, people are going to think you're the Didgit. (And by "people" I mean everyone but metulj; he thinks every new poster is the Didgit)
Now that's not fair. I don't
Now that's not fair. I don't think every new poster is the Didgit. There have been two or three in the last six months that didn't post the exact same thing elsewhere and then cut-and-paste it here.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/
(link...)
Two out of the three dropped the matter. What do you make of that?
I take away from that the
I take away from that the fact that he isn't considering a lawsuit. Sheesh.
It's irrelevant. Monied
It's irrelevant. Monied entities often hope the hassle and expense of hiring an attorney will be adequate to prevent a lawsuit, and in this case there is the additional deterrent of putting oneself in the public spotlight. Might don't make right.
Jarret's reasoning is contrary to the Charter, and that should be cause for him to reconsider. Likewise, if Burchett wants to do the right thing instead of the cheap thing, he'll reconsider. Ultimately this line of reasoning weakens the Mayor and makes the office vulnerable to meddling and interference from the other branches, and I don't know why Burchett would want that.
Penalizing these three for Ragsdale's sins may appease the angry mob, but it looks petty to the more civilized majority, particularly in the case of Weuthrich, who was a public servant for almost 30 years. Is dishonoring his service really worth the paltry savings?
"but it looks petty to the
"but it looks petty to the more civilized majority"
Huh? The vast majority wanted rid of these people. Your ideas of what is civilized are peculiar. Sounds like teachers union mentality.
I know you will say how great Franks was. He wanted to kill the branch libraries to built a monument downtown. People who used the branches had no use for Larry Frank.
The vast majority wanted rid
The vast majority wanted rid of these people.
I doubt very much that the "vast majority" even knew who these people were.
He wanted to kill the branch libraries to built a monument downtown.
You know, you can't just keep saying things like this with no evidence. Show me one bit of evidence that Larry Frank wanted to "kill the branch libraries."
"You know, you can't just
"You know, you can't just keep saying things like this with no evidence. Show me one bit of evidence that Larry Frank wanted to "kill the branch libraries."
Hall monitor? It was on tv, find it yourself.
As usual, the didgit is
As usual, the didgit is forcing me to conclude he's just making stuff up.
Your ideas of what is
Your ideas of what is civilized are peculiar.
No kidding, quoting the county charter is quite peculiar, even fundamental.
Do you have any legal basis for your stance? Oh, that's right, you have the Law Director claiming the County Mayor lacks the power to enter into a severance agreement because nowhere in the Charter is that power granted. I have the County Charter saying powers not prohibited by the state belong to the Mayor.
Who is being civilized? Show me where state law prohibits a mayor from negotiating severance. If you can not do so, the Charter says you have no case.
These people deserve their severance whether Burchett likes it or not; what anyone thinks of the man they negotiated with is irrelevant because he was the rightful mayor of Knox County and they were employees of Knox County government. Only by depriving the Charter of its authority and the County of its sovereignty can you deprive these employees of their severance. Why you want to punish them for Ragsdale's sins is your own problem.
"I have the County Charter
"I have the County Charter saying powers not prohibited by the state belong to the Mayor."
The state said nothing about slush funds. Why did Ragsdale have to get rid of his slush fund? The state said nothing about P-card abuse, why did Ragsdale have to repay the county? Your statement is dumb.
rikki,
I just want to make one comment. You said-
Mr. Weuthrich, is far from being dishonored, considering he will be awarded for that 26 years of service, a fully paid for Pension, in his retirement years. The TCRS Pension plan will base his retirement income on the Highest Average income made over a three year period, during the last 5 years of his employment with Knox County.
This benefit is hardly dishonoring him. We should all be so lucky.
This benefit is hardly
This benefit is hardly dishonoring him
It's also not what I'm talking about. Since you and Hoyt have only attempted to change the subject, I'll assume you are conceding the main point.
Your assumption is incorrect.
Your assumption is incorrect.
No Public Sector Employee should be awarded any type of severence from their Job.
One of the Main draws for people to work in the Public sector is the Benefits. In many cases, such as educators, they have lower salaries, but are fully vested in their pensions after 5 years of employment.
The Pension that Mr. W. will receive is what he earned and what he deserves for his time with Knox County. And it could eventually be Hundreds of thousands of dollars, if he and or his spouse live a good long life.
No Public Sector Employee
No Public Sector Employee should be awarded any type of severence from their Job.
If you can back that statement up with an applicable law or policy that says so, you might have a point. Jarret looked for such a law and found nothing. I looked too and found nothing. Have you discovered some relevant fact we should know about?
rikki,
Pension, Pension, Pension, Pension, Pension, plus Benefits during their Public Sector employment = NO SEVERENCE
Do you have a Traditional Pension at your work?
If not, do you have a 401K type of split Retirement plan?
If you do, than when or if your Job is ever downsized, or if eventualy you start making to much money, or you make it until retirement, than you could possibly receive a Severence package, or a Buy-Out package so you will leave your Job early.
Or you may be a Contract worker, in which case all of these issues should be SPELLED out in your Contract, then you wouldn't be questioning these things.
all of these issues should be
all of these issues should be SPELLED out in your Contract
"should be" is irrelevant; we are talking about an actual event. In that real event, these issues were NOT spelled out. There is no contract, manual nor law that says anything about severance. You are not talking about reality.
Regardless of how emphatically you type "pension" in caps eight times, your argument requires evidence that exists outside your head. Do you have any?
If you think a county mayor should not be allowed to negotiate severance agreements, you need to lobby your state representatives to pass a law. Under existing law, there is no such restriction.
rikki,
I said in my opinion, Public sector employees should not receive any severance, they receive other types of compensation, such as PENSIONS.
There is no contract, manual nor law that says anything about severance. You are not talking about reality.
Have you ever had an employment Contract rikki? Many, Many Employment Contracts contain language about eligibility for Severance compensation. What do you do for a Living? Have you ever worked under an employment Contract? You might want to look back at yours if you have.
Regardless of how emphatically you type "pension" in caps eight times,
I only typed Pension 6 times, and it was not in Caps.
If you think a county mayor should not be allowed to negotiate severance agreements, you need to lobby your state representatives to pass a law. Under existing law, there is no such restriction.
I never said anything about Ragsdale's legal right to give county money away. Nor did I say anything about any legal restrictions keeping him from doing it. He obviously doesn't need any legal authority to give away County Money, he's been doing it for 8 years.
Have you ever had an
Have you ever had an employment Contract rikki? Many, Many Employment Contracts contain language about eligibility for Severance compensation. What do you do for a Living? Have you ever worked under an employment Contract?
Catch a damn clue. I am not speaking from personal experience. I am talking about existing law in Knox County and the State of Tennessee. The Law Director inspected all the relevant documents and found nothing about severance agreements. If you dispute that, take it up with Jarret, not me.
Let’s recap, You said: If
Let’s recap,
You said:
If you think a county mayor should not be allowed to negotiate severance agreements, you need to lobby your state representatives to pass a law. Under existing law, there is no such restriction.
Then I said:
I never said anything about Ragsdale's legal right to give county money away. Nor did I say anything about any legal restrictions keeping him from doing it. He obviously doesn't need any legal authority to give away County Money, he's been doing it for 8 years.
Then you said:
Catch a damn clue. I am not speaking from personal experience. I am talking about existing law in Knox County and the State of Tennessee. The Law Director inspected all the relevant documents and found nothing about severance agreements. If you dispute that, take it up with Jarret, not me.
I don’t care whether he has the LEGAL right to do it or not, I said IN MY OPINION, no Public Sector employee should be given a severance. In many cases, they have fully funded PENSION plans that essentially are their severance.
In many other municipalities, this issue has been taken care of by Employee Handbook clarifications or Employment Contracts, that lay out Severance eligibility language.
From Wiki comes this:
Severance packages are most typically offered for employees who are laid off or retire. Sometimes, they may be offered for people who resign, regardless of the circumstances; or are fired. Policies for severance packages are often found in a company's employee handbook, and in many countries are subject to strict government regulation. Severance contracts often stipulate that the employee will not sue the employer for wrongful termination or attempt to collect on unemployment insurance, and that if the employee does so, then he must return the severance money.
Another Wikipedia
Another Wikipedia Valedictorian!
"If you think a county mayor
"If you think a county mayor should not be allowed to negotiate severance agreements, you need to lobby your state representatives to pass a law. Under existing law, there is no such restriction."
There is no provision either. Your Charter clause won't hunt. Jarrett was correct.
There is no provision either.
There is no provision either. Your Charter clause won't hunt. Jarrett was correct.
Read the very first clause of the Charter, the one I quoted and you requoted. If there is no provision, the county has the authority. This is simple stuff.
I don't know why you even post at all. All you ever accomplish is further erosion of your own credibility. At least "a real lawyer" would have the excuse that they were only representing a client. What's your excuse?
"It's also not what I'm
"It's also not what I'm talking about."
Other than defending Ragsdale, what are you talking about?
"Where did you get your law
"Where did you get your law degree?"
Ah, the Digit....
"Where did you get your law degree?"
Wow, so do you have to have a law degree to be able to see that something is illegal?
"Wow, so do you have to have
"Wow, so do you have to have a law degree to be able to see that something is illegal?"
Then why have all three of them not taken action to get their money? Except for Dupes, each has said they will not sue.
Not a one of you has cited anything to back up Ragsdale other than opinion.
I just re-read the article...
Both Franks and Wuetrich (sp?) said they don't plan to sue...but plans can change, especially if you become convinced that you have been royally screwed.
It also mentioned that Franks was perplexed by the objection over his severance pay when severance was offered to past employees that had left after being exposed for questionable behaviors. As far as I know, Franks never did anything unsavory in his tenure and he should be treated with more respect by the in-coming administration (despite any personal conflicts or not) and by the citizens of this county; he did a good job, he didn't embarrass us in front of the whole world (which cannot be said by several recently resigned employees), and he gracefully agreed to leave when told he would not be wanted by the in-coming administration rather than forcing them to go public with their reasons for wanting him gone.
This whole mess has been a
This whole mess has been a sorry display for the enjoyment of the crowd who think county employees are sub-human.
I ran into the most experienced local government lawyer (not a government employee anymore, but someone with a massive amount of expertise) I know the other day and asked him what he thought of the events of the last week, including Joe Jarret's memo. He shuddered.
"This whole mess has been a
"This whole mess has been a sorry display for the enjoyment of the crowd who think county employees are sub-human."
Sub-human? These three people were paid more than they could earn in private business. They got to eat high on the hog and we paid for it. After all of that you think they deserve three months severance?
Rikki's analysis is spot on.
Rikki's analysis is spot on. Further, it isn't even that complicated. It's a pretty simple and obvious breach of contract.
"It's a pretty simple and
"It's a pretty simple and obvious breach of contract."
How is an offer a contract?
Thigh slapper!
Thigh slapper!
"How is an offer a
How is an offer a contract?
It's a contract when the other party accepts the offer.
Where did you go to law school? You should get your money back.
I only had two quarters of
I only had two quarters of business law back in the early 70s, but I know the answer to what makes a contract: offer, consideration, acceptance.
Doesn't have to be written, either.
Whatever was "offered" by
Whatever was "offered" by Ragsdale to these three, Non-Contract employees, is not a Contract, and it is nothing even close to a Contract. At best it was a Shady backroom deal for Ragsdale’s buddies.
The offer was completely inappropriate and probably un-ethical, unless the same type of "Offer" was made to every Knox County employee that will lose or has lost their Job, because of the change in administrations.
Oh wait, that’s not going to happen because if they have been employed for over 5 years, they are entitled to their State Funded Pensions. The Pension is their severance.
There is no state funded
There is no state funded pension for county employees. County employees invest a minimum of 6% of pay in a 401 plan which is matched by the county. Employees are fully vested after five years.
Mr. K, Please read before you
Mr. K, Please read before you speak,
There are a few types of Retirement Plans for Knox County Employees. The Majority of the Employees of Knox Conty are the Teachers and Administrators in the School system, and they ARE covered under the TCRS. Tennessee Consolidated Retirement System. Many older Participants do not pay anything into this fund, newer employees, do participate by contributing 5% or more, depending on where they fall in the classifications.
Some County Employees have what's called a Closed Pension plan, which W. falls under because of his tenure. This Plan says clearly that the "employees contribution is Picked up by the county" Which means, the employee does not actually pay into it, he is just assigned the amount equal to 5% of his earnings.
Bottom line is for Mr W's time with the County, he gets a very nice pension. That is his Severence.
Try again.
Here is the link:
(link...)
A pension is not a severance
A pension is not a severance package. A pension is a part of an earned compensation package. It is not a gift or a whim, it is earned as one goes along and is not to be confused with any other benefit or compensation.
Severance pay is a different issue entirely.
There was an offer – quit now
There was an offer – quit now or wait till next week and be fired.
There was consideration – the severance agreement.
And there was acceptance.
Sounds like Contracts 101.
Sounds like Contracts
Sounds like Contracts 101.
Bingo.
"There was an offer – quit
"There was an offer – quit now or wait till next week and be fired.
There was consideration – the severance agreement.
And there was acceptance.
Sounds like Contracts 101."
RNeal offers a contract to sell Bbeanster's house for $10,000. Offer is accepted.
Now tell me more about Contracts 101. You have to have the right and ability to make the offer.
The law director, a real lawyer, said Ragsdale did not have the ability to make the offer.
Is that Contracts 201?
The law director, a real
The law director, a real lawyer, said Ragsdale did not have the ability to make the offer.
The fact that he is "a real lawyer" means he is representing a client. His job is not to be correct; it is to represent his client. In any legal action there are two "real lawyers" arguing for opposing outcomes. Both can not be correct.
I have pointed out where Jarret's argument is incomplete or inconsistent with the Charter, and I have explained my position and backed it up with facts and reasoning. You keep trying to change the subject because you know I'm right.
Your conclusions derive entirely from the outcome you desire, not from principles nor the law. You have no case, just a narrow, craven interest in a certain outcome. You keep appealing to authority, distraction and confusion because you have already lost on the field of rational discourse.
rikki said, "It also says
rikki said, "It also says this in Article 1, Section 1.01: "The Knox County Government shall exercise any power or perform any function which is not denied by the Constitution of the State of Tennessee. It is the intent of this Charter that limitations on the powers of County Government shall be strictly construed, and that grants of power to County Government shall be liberally construed."
So? Is the clause enforceable? Says who? Has it been tested? Does that mean the Mayor can perform legislative functions? No Constitution can withstand that clause.
By your terms the state would have to have a Constitution of unlimited length and complexity to anticipate every Ragsdale that comes down the pike.
Is the Charter enforceable?
Is the Charter enforceable? That's hilarious. None of this makes any sense to you, does it? Have you ever read the Charter? It clearly assigns legislative functions to the Commission and executive functions to the Mayor. Sure, I'm not "a real lawyer," but you're making yourself look like a real idiot.
The Charter starts with that clause precisely to avoid the "unlimited length and complexity" you describe. It is Jarret's stance that threatens to introduce length and complexity to the law. Obviously you haven't even grasped the rough contours of this argument if you think I'm the one complicating things.
Furthermore, it's not the job of the Constitution nor the Charter to anticipate Ragsdales. It is our job as voters to not elect douchebags, not that we had a choice with Ragsdale. If you want to prevent future Ragsdales, you need to figure out how and why it is possible for a candidate to raise so much money no one bothers to oppose him or her.
The Wealthy Public-Sector Worker: A Myth Debunked
paul krugman's latest thoughts on the subject.
Whenever the subject of state and local governments' fiscal plight comes up here in the United States, conservatives engage in spittle-flecked denunciations of unions and their crazy pay packages ... I looked at finance data from the U.S. Census and got the composition of nonfederal government spending shown in the graphic on this page. You'll see two things. First, wages and retirement benefits don't take up an unreasonably large piece of the pie. Second, subtracting a few percentage points either in pay or retirement benefits would not actually make a big difference. In the end, this is a phony issue.
hoyt
hoyt-you will learn. you will never win. you are not one of them. you think with logic and reason. you are incapable of 'winning' an argument on this board. I read mostly for laughs, but never to try to shine light on a subject or (God-Forbid!) change someone's mind! it's about 10 or maybe 15 posters that really enjoy chatting back and forth with one another and seem to be pretty intelligent, functioning members of the community, except that when it comes to politics they are just plain clueless. But you will absolutely wear yourself out trying to argue with them. Just don't bother. You won't win, and they get off on wearing you out with words. {Think Democrat version of Brian Hornback only with actual other supporters--Very Scary!}
Oh, brotha.
You evidently don't know who you're talking to.
But you will absolutely wear
But you will absolutely wear yourself out trying to argue with them.
Don't worry, curious. It's impossible to wear Hoyt out.
Post new comment