Wed
Feb 10 2010
03:42 pm
By: R. Neal
KNS: Principal and Asst. Principal wounded, suspect in custody...
UPDATE: WATE: Shooter is school employee...
UPDATE: KNS now reporting that the suspect is a 48 year old fourth-grade teacher.
UPDATE: KNS reporting that the suspect has been charged with two counts of attempted first-degree murder. Principal Elisa Luna reported to be in critical condition at UTMC.
UPDATE: Disturbing picture of shooter emerges.
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Oh, my. My sympathies go out
Oh, my. My sympathies go out to the victims and their families.
What is wrong with people? Are people getting more violent or is it we just have more people or?
Men with guns
It's another white male with a gun. I see the majority losing its grip on power and they're mad. The tea party denounced the "cult of multiculturalism" and the Superbowl ads were full of misogyny. I see homegrown terrorists among us.
This is getting too common,
This is getting too common, and not just here of course.
Apparently...
... his ex-boss called into WNOX this morning. Apparently, he got laid off/fired and took his gun to kill his ex-boss last year. He was stopped and questioned by police. He told them straight up he was going to shoot his ex-boss.
He was later asked what he would have done if the guy's family had been there. He allegedly replied that he would have shot them all.
I can't understand how this guy was allowed to teach and retain any ability to own a gun. The system is seriously broken if a guy so clearly out of control is left to repeat the action.
This really is a mystery
I don't understand it. This guy was old enough for there to have been Jesus in his classroom back in the days when he was a student. And since the absence of Jesus in the classroom is the cause of all this violence, then how could this have happened?
Why does tragedy come with agendas?
A terrible shooting.......a disturbed shooter family's that are worried about wounded loved ones.
So instead of words of support or grieving together we are subjected to 2 rants so far......Its the angry white men that caused it......and jesus didn't keep it from happening.
I for one am getting so sick of both sides i cant stand it. pro gun or anti gun , right wing or progressive,black or white
Tolerance? basically a crap concept when the two opposite factions square off.
How about the common sense party?
coommon sense would involve looking at causes
Not just wringing your hands about how awful this is.
I think KCS did all (or most) that they could
I had the same initial "OMG, how did this happen" response as everyone else, Alex, but now that all the chronology is known, I really do think KCS acted correctly at every juncture, based on what they did or didn't know when.
At the time he was hired, Foster passed KCS's background check including a TBI/FBI fingerprint database check, a Department of Children's Services check, and a drug test.
Yes, KCS received an anonymous tip in November 2009, but the tipster, who was a relative, wouldn't meet with KCS administrators. Yes, KCS became aware that Foster's brother (possibly the tipster) had sought an Order of Protection, but the request was dismissed by a judge for lack of evidence. Yes, Anderson County police had received complaints about Foster (and he was "banned from the Waffle House"), but he still hadn't committed any offense that would warrant his arrest.
I can come up with only two *possible* preventive actions that KCS might have taken, but didn't: Maybe some sort of psychological testing at his hire would have weeded him out as a job candidate (although that tool is one that might be abused in other scenarios), and maybe KCS should re-think this practice of telling employees in February that they're out of a job, then allowing them to stay on the payroll through May (although Foster might have just taken this same action in May).
Try as I might, I keep coming back to lay blame only on Foster...
Tamara has a good analysis,
Tamara has a good analysis, and of course the shooter is ultimately to blame.
The way the system works, if you aren't convicted or committed, or you've had your record expunged, I guess there's not much a potential employer can do about it and that's probably as it should be. People can get better and redeem themselves.
Plus, all the background checks in the world aren't going to ID a psycho who has otherwise stayed completely off the radar or stop him/her from snapping. The first time could be the worst.
Psychological testing for some jobs, including teachers, sounds like at least one reasonable approach.
I believe it's legitimate to
I believe it's legitimate to ask how this guy got a job teaching at an elementary school. What kind of background checks do teachers undergo?
This appears to be a situation involving a disgruntled, unbalanced employee and could have happened anywhere (and maybe almost did) not just a school. But schools are not just anywhere.
And for the record, Stacey
And for the record, Stacey Campfield is the first elected official to politicize the tragedy, barely more than an hour after it happened while one victim was in the hospital fighting for her life.
(link...)
One of his former colleagues'
One of his former colleagues' daughters, no less. Shameless.
Any updated status on Elisa Cooper Luna?
According to news reports,
According to news reports, this morning she was still listed in critical condition at UTMC.
The superintendent did
The superintendent did confirm yesterday that the guy's contract wasn't going to be renewed. But I'm with Randy: How did he ever get hired?
Her condition has been
Her condition has been upgraded from critical to good. There was some fear of paralysis, but I understand she has been able to move her limbs on command.
I think her outlook is good, as far as her physical status is concerned. I worry about her emotional well-being, though. I don't know that I could walk back into that office if I were in her position.
Exactly! A ridiculous feeling
Exactly! A ridiculous feeling for someone working at an elementary school.
I learned this afternoon that
I learned this afternoon that my friend's grandson was a student in the shooter's classroom. My friend had picked up the grandson at school, and had received a call from the kid's mother about the shooting and that it was "Mr. Foster" who had been the shooter. The grandmother, mother and father all sat him down and told him together. He was upset that Ms. Brace and Ms. Luna were hurt, and confused that Mr. Foster had a gun at school because you're not supposed to have guns at school.
He's a kid who doesn't show his emotions very much, and isn't one to say he doesn't like someone but had expressed some frustration throughout the year with his teacher. Needless to say, my friend is upset. As she said, as far as she knows Mr. Foster is the only person she has ever shook hands with who has then used that hand to shoot someone who wasn't armed. Now multiple that by however many kids are in that fourth grade class. Then multiple it by how many kids are in Inskip School.
Then look at every elementary school in the county.
Lots of prayers needed right now. Lots of thoughtful conversations with lots of kids.
How did this happen? That's a
How did this happen?
That's a good question.
With McIntyre being hired, I think many of us hoped we could cut out the wasteful bureaucracy in the central office and actually see things get done.
Instead we have Roy Mullins working part-time considering a run for a school board seat and an Office of Accountability to add to the layers of bureaucracy in Andrew Johnson.
I wonder exactly what Mr. Mullins does, and exactly how many more retired school department executives are working part time for Knox County schools?
And as far as having an Office of Accountability goes, that should be the superintendent's office. Period.
Seems like McIntyre has just kept a lot of holdovers from Lindsey's tenure, apparently in order to not rock the boat and ensure his position.
To paraphrase a speaker talking about the failures of US intelligence agencies, it seems like Knox County's central office is more concered with job security than with school security.
More info emerges: Officials:
More info emerges:
Officials: Knox school shooting suspect cleared all background checks
Former boss: Knox school shooting suspect threatened to kill him
Email to Knox County Schools warned about shooting suspect's behavior
Accused school shooter's brother speaks out
School shooting suspect's personnel file shows meetings about complaints
Teacher who allegedly shot principals called a 'time bomb'
Wow. Sounds like they did all
Wow.
Sounds like they did all the right things and everything they could do legally. Then when they finally took action to get rid of the guy, our extremely lax gun laws made his crimes that much easier to commit.
What kind of revision to gun laws could have made it harder for this nut to get a gun? Maybe preventing people who have been institutionalized from owning guns?
Of course there's always the alternative of devoting lots more tax dollars to pay armed guards at schools. That'll be great for the kids.
I respectfully disagree. I
I respectfully disagree.
I don't think they did all the "right" things.
I think they did the what was minimally required of them. There's a big difference.
Laws are the minimum requirements. Ethics require courage and a willingness to do what's right regardless of personal cost.
Knox County Schools has for far too long suffered from leadership that lacks ethics. They'll follow the law...because they have to.
Did they even check Foster's references? Could Roy Mullins have done it while working part time?
Background checks catch those who have records.
There are a ton of pedophiles and other law breakers who have never been caught. They don't show up on background checks. They never will until they're caught.
Saying Knox County Schools "did everything right" because this guy didn't show up on background checks is excusing the sorry hiring processes of Knox County Schools.
Whoever hired Foster should be fired. Period.
What could KCS have done differently, and when?
Presumably, Elisa Luna hired Mark Foster. Principals usually hire and fire any staff to be hired or fired while they're the chief administrators in the building.
Even if KCS had failed to check Foster's references, do you think those references would have divulged anything that might have caused them not to hire him?
I'm thinking that Foster's personal references were probably people he knew would speak well of him, and his professional references (Boeing, etc.) were too professional to risk revealing very much beyond start date and payrate, end date and payrate.
And the background checks, as you say, "catch those who have records." Foster didn't yet have one.
If you're including as part of Foster's "record" his brother's allegation today that Mark had been institutionalized three times, did the brother tell KCS this earlier? If so, how might KCS have verified the allegation?
Specifically, what do you think KCS should have done differently, and at what juncture?
If he was an untenured
If he was an untenured teacher, he could have been let go without reason.
If it went to court, so what? The path to civil court goes two ways. The path to the grave is one way.
The central office failed to follow up on what appeared to be a serious tip about a very serious threat.
Funny, I don't think it took them that long to go after Psighois or Kallenberg at Powell High School.
If the emails first arrived in November, that's almost four months ago. The description "a ticking time bomb" clearly implied time was critical. Griffin and others ignored that warning, and it nearly cost two people their lives.
At the very least, Steve Griffin, head of KCS security, should be fired.
Unfounded accusation issues?
So, we should fire / refuse to hire people based on anonymous tips? How many lawsuits do you think the school system would be involved in if they adopted this policy?
Yes, we should have checked out the references, and there is a technique to use the primary (groomed) references to obtain secondary (non-groomed) reference contacts, which is a much more effective approach.
I can understand KCS dismissing a statement from his brother as a family squabble- I believe the famous 'protection order' was dismissed for lack of evidence.
No criminal record (then)
And it appears that a background check was conducted at the gun show, too.
Because Foster lacked any criminal record, there was nothing in his background to preclude his buying the gun.
I was thinking the other day
I was thinking the other day about the instant background check and handgun carry permit process.
Maybe there should be an "alert registry," that would let people request to be notified if a firearm background check is performed on a particular individual, or if that individual applies for a carry permit.
Maybe it would have to be limited to people who have obtained an order of protection or filed a formal police complaint regarding the individual. Or maybe there could be an official request form stating the cause and it gets reviewed by law enforcement.
You want the principal fired
You want the principal fired before or after she leaves the hospital? She hired him!
Read my comment. Did I
Read my comment.
Did I mention the principal?
No.
I mentioned Steve Griffin, head of security.
Don't put words in my mouth.
The problem in Knox County Schools is the lack of competent administrators and department heads in the Andrew Johnson Building.
Yes, you did say the principal should be fired
KC said (on Friday at 11:48 pm):
...and I was saying the same thing a couple of days back, not knowing that it was Elisa Luna who had hired him.
More is known now, KC, and I'm just fearful that what you're suggesting, namely that KCS should begin arbitrarily hiring and firing on the basis of anonymous and/or unconfirmed rumor and innuendo, isn' the best answer over the long haul.
I'd rather think in terms of what might be done differently at the front end, such that the risk is eliminated of KCS ever again hiring someone like Mark Foster.
Meanwhile, it seems to me that KCS has used on Mark Foster every screening and investigatory tool currently available to them under law.
If Elisa Luna hired Foster
If Elisa Luna hired Foster unknowing of his record then that's not her fault, and she should not be fired.
I was referring to those bureaucrats in personnel and security who failed to do a thorough check on his employment record and failed to adequately follow up on the emails.
They may have used every screening check that's handed to them on a silver platter, and requires no work on their own, but that's simply not good enough.
School security is clearly failing to produce results in adequately protecting children and school employees.
How many more shootings and deaths will have to occur before people like yourself are willing to demand this administration clean house of all the deadwood in the Andrew Johnson Building?
How many more shootings and
How many more shootings and deaths will have to occur before people like yourself are willing to demand stronger gun laws?
I was kind of wondering that ...
myself.
According to the newspaper, he bought the gun he used at a gun show in Chilhowee Park in January. If there had been a mandatory waiting period on gun sales both private and through vendors at that gun show, he might not have had the gun he used. Or better yet, if private sales were not allowed at gun shows and if background checks were required of ALL gun sales, either from private sellers or dealers, he might not have had that gun.
I think it is not unreasonable to require anyone who wants to sell a gun to get a minimum amount of information from a buyer (i.e. name, address, SSN, phone, driver's license... etc.) and submit it to the TBI or the state Department of Safety for a background check. If they don't, they should be liable in civil court at the very least for any crime the purchaser then goes out and commits. If they DO get the information and make a reasonable attempt to run a background check they would be exempt from criminal or civil liabilities. If someone doesn't want to give out that information, then they really don't need to buy a gun now do they?
What????
Nameless, faceless bureaucrat in central office = bad.
Bureaucrat with a couple of bullets in her, fighting for her life = good.
Perhaps those bureaucrats in the central office are real people too, and some of them work hard and do the best job they can within the constraints of the rules.
I get tired of people painting just about everyone in the public education system with the broad paint brush that says "lazy." Sure, there are some lazy administrators. And I see a lot of lazy teachers and principals. And there's a lot of good, dedicated ones, too, a lot more.
And guess what? In private enterprise, there are hard-working people, and there are lazy bums there, too. But I assure you there's nobody in education making eight-figure bonuses.
I agree and submit further...
Not just stupidity...but also mediocrity.
Most of the powerful people seem to prefer that everyone be not only ignorant and stupid but mediocre as well. They want a dearth of ambition...even though they love to give lip-service to American Entrepreneur-ism in political speeches. They do not, however, actually like it when someone actually tries to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps...lots of roadblocks are thrown in the way.
If you don't see that the
If you don't see that the current administration in the central office is incompetent, you're paying too little attention to ever deserve to be elected to public office.
BTW, how's that Office of Accountability stuff going?
I doubt that whenever you proclaim your opinions of the bureaucracies in the CIA and Pentagon you are so forgiving than you are with the KCS's central office.
I get tired of people
Also, don't put words in my mouth.
I never said anything about the "public education system" as whole, but I realize that like a few others on here you have to create an issue in order for you to look like you're arguing successfully against it.
I never said I was for private schools or school choice, as someone else I implied on here.
What I am for is clear accountability in the central office.
McIntyre may not be making eight figure bonuses, but he's making, oh, maybe ten times when you add in the perks, of what a starting teacher makes.
Maybe I'm naive, but I would like to see some solid results from him.
Not Lindsey warmed over.
It's probably worth noting
It's probably worth noting that the school board hasn't set the best example lately:
Phillips’ case: School board member guilty of lesser charge
Is he still on the school
Is he still on the school board?
No, he resigned last month.
No, he resigned last month.
Under pressure from the AG,
Under pressure from the AG, Randy. Otherwise he'd be clinging to the post like grim death.
LVG
Institutionalized?
Was Foster previously institutionalized? I thought we were told only that Anderson County law enforcement took him to some local mental hospital there for a 90-minute evaluation, but that his evaluators gave him a green light? Did I miss something?
Foster used .38-caliber in
Foster used .38-caliber in shootings, bought at gun show two weeks ago
If they have records it means it must have been purchased from a legit dealer, which means there was an "instant" background check, which is basically a check of the NCIC and TBI databases for name and SSN and signing a form that says you're not crazy. If he got it from an individual in a "private sale" there's no check at all.
.
This is probably not the time to discuss if things should have been done differently. But at some point there should be some thought as to why places like Post Offices and schools are having such extreme violent behavior with employees. Since the 1960's all kinds of new ways of dealing with employees have been implemented in not only government but private business. The common denominator is lack of people skills and reliance on HR manuals that give a one size fits all methodology.
Not gonna do it...Nope nope nope
Not going to point out how ignorant that post is, or that if you ask any teacher they'll tell you it is the squeezed resources and oversized classes and fifty other things that could be corrected so easily to make the job attract more good people into teachering. I'm just not.
.
"Not going to point out how ignorant that post is, or that if you ask any teacher they'll tell you it is the squeezed resources and oversized classes and fifty other things that could be corrected so easily to make the job attract more good people into teachering. I'm just not."
What does your post have to do with my post? There is no correlation between the two posts.
Is teachering even a word? Please tell us more about this ignorance you speak of.
Simply a tragedy
This is simply a terrible tragedy. My heart and prayers go out to the families of Ms. Luna and Ms. Brace. There are no words to describe how truly horrible this is. My own thoughts about trying to place blame (which is likely inappropriate at this time), would be along the lines of Tamara and R.Neal.
With all due respect, when
With all due respect, when would an "appropriate time" be?
The next time?
Or perhaps the next?
The danger that a school district's administration creates in its inability to create a safe learning environment is an immediate danger.
And it needs to be discussed and dealt with immediately.
.
"With all due respect, when would an "appropriate time" be?"
When the victims are home and have had time to heal.
Well yes, that should give
Well yes, that should give everyone in KCS administration enough time to construct a CYA story.
If lives are on the line, including possibly children's lives, do we have the time to wait?
McIntyre and Griffin and the other personnel and security administrators in the Andrew Johnson Building who may be in some way responsible for this weren't the victims.
I don't think they need time to heal, do they?
Officials at UT Medical
WATE: Officials at UT Medical Center have upgraded Inskip Elementary School Principal Elisa Luna's condition from serious to stable.
Good news. Let's hope the
Good news.
Let's hope the central office doesn't try to make her the scapegoat or a cover for its incompetency.
Changes await Inskip students
Changes await Inskip students » Knoxville News Sentinel:
Work groups are fine for
Work groups are fine for raising TCAP scores, increasing attendance, decreasing drop out rates, but seriously for something like this?
Don't kid yourself.
"Work groups" in K-town are just like "task forces" and "study groups" in Washington.
They're created to distract attention and to create the perception that something is being done to address the issue.
I thought McIntyre was going to take us to the "next level."
We're at the same level of accountability we were before with Lindsey. There is none.
I wonder how many more shootings will have to take place before McIntyre is held accountable, not for the shootings, but for continuing to keep the holdovers from the Lindsey era?
Specifically, Griffin, Wright, and Mullins to name three.
WATE: Inskip principal can't
WATE: Inskip principal can't move legs; will be transferred to Atlanta hospital
What am I missing?
Why doesn't the school district have worker's compensation for certified employees? This would be a very good time for the KNS to do a story explaining this to the public.
With a well paid
With a well paid superintendent, a part time "retired" former interim superintendent, and an executive in the Office of Accountability, I think there's quite a bit out there that the KNS could explain to us about the central office.
I mean, if times are really going to be as tough as Mcintyre has claimed, exactly WHAT does Mullins do, and exactly HOW MUCH is he getting paid for doing it? And that's just for starters.
We shouldn't be paying for deadwood to occupy the central office, when KCS is morally and ethically responsible for Lunas's medical bills.
Press Release from Amy Brace
I received a copy of this touching press release from Inskip Elementary's Assistant Principal, Amy Brace, and thought you might appreciate seeing it, too.