That's the question being raised across the state as a result of Tom Humphrey's Sunday News Sentinel report on the personal finances of the four GOP gubernatorial candidates.
Haslam is being criticized for not disclosing all of his financial information. Details about income from his stake in Pilot and related taxes were "backed out" of his disclosure.
Tom Humphrey has been tracking the reaction:
• Haslam Opponents Fault Failure to Disclose Pilot Income
• Gibbons, Wamp Amplify Calls for More Haslam Disclosure
• More Commentary on Haslam's Pilot Silence
It should be noted that candidates are not required to provide any personal financial information at all, but all of the candidates responded in some form or another to the joint request from the state's four largest newspapers. Wamp and Gibbons made full disclosures.
The numbers tossed around in the original report re. Mayor Haslam's finances are confusing, but this one is a real puzzler: Federal taxes paid were "$136,676 on almost $2.9 million of income in 2008" (excluding Pilot income and taxes).
That works out to an effective tax rate of 4.7%, which is a fraction of Haslam's top tax bracket rate of 35%, and less than half of the 10% rate for people living in poverty who can't itemize or deduct anything.
Even if all of the income came from long-term capital gains the rate would be 15%. That's more than three times what Haslam actually paid according to the report.
Even if you deduct the reported $985,451 in charitable contributions (assuming they are all deductible), it works out to 7.3% in taxes paid. That's a pretty good deal.
Either something doesn't add up, or I need a better accountant.
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The best part is where Haslam says he is doing this to protect family members and Pilot Oil.
What I have never understood is why liberals love Bill Haslam. This move speaks volumes about what kind of Governor he would be. But little sound comes from Blue Tennessee.
"Liberals" don't love Bill
"Liberals" don't love Bill Haslam. But if Tennessee is going to wind up with a Republican governor in the next term, he's a quantum leap in temperament above frothing supremacist morons like Zach Wamp or plutocratic sluggards like Ron Ramsey.
____________________________
Calling to the underworld. Come out of the cupboard, you boys and girls.
I'd like to think we can get
I'd like to think we can get Kim McMillan in the governor's seat and Haslam or any of the Repub's won't be an issue.
I'd like to think we can
Oh, I'd like to think that myself. However, we are talking about the TNDP here.
What I like and what I'm prepared to accept are different matters. I'm bedeviled by pragmatic concerns; some imagined, unfortunately mostly real.
As some of my opinion about McMillan is not fit for mixed company, I will defer from offering it, although I will probably cast a vote for her over Mini McWherter in the "primary." Suffice it to say that not all "good ol' boys" are male. But we go into "primary" season with the candidates that we have, &c.
____________________________
Calling to the underworld. Come out of the cupboard, you boys and girls.
I'd like to know what kind
I'd like to know what kind of deductions (not including charitable deductions which are already accounted for) can reduce an adjusted taxable income of $1,871,665 so much that only $136,676 in taxes are paid.
I'm just guessing that $136,676 in taxes sounds about right for $500,000 to $600,000 in net income. Do you think it is all in interest paid on an expensive house? That's be a lot of house. After looking at a $3.9 million house on Realtor.com, it would appear that interest could be from $120,000/yr to $240,000/yr. Sure do have a lot more of deductions to list. I apparently can't think in those terms. What could they be?
I'm guessing Gibbons (est. 25% tax rate), Ramsey (est. 24% tax rate), and Wamp (est. 18% tax rate) might like to be in the know on low taxes as well.
That $136k has to be a
That $136k has to be a misprint. The graphic with the KNS article shows federal taxes around $1.2M for 2006 and 2007. The $136k figure must either be state taxes or a misplaced comma in $1.3M.
That $136k has to be a
That $136k has to be a misprint.
Could be.
However, he did report a lot less income in 2008 ($2,857,116) compared to 2007 ($10,354,468) and 2006 ($7,395,493). When caluculating using the same method as 2008, he paid 12-13% taxes in 2007 and 16-18% in 2006.
Those are still remarkably
Those are still remarkably low tax rates, and it sounds like he might have had a lot of exposure to mortgage derivatives. His accountant seems considerably more skilled than his investment advisers.
how could you know?
Haslam should release all his tax records. It is impossible to guess since he could have many write offs from other companies.
Haslam wants special treatment.
It's a CORNSPRIACY! True
It's a CORNSPRIACY!
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
Jeez, $10,000,000 in passive
Jeez, $10,000,000 in passive income (presumably, since he has a full time job as Mayor) for 2007 not counting Pilot means he must in the neighborhood of $100 million or more in principle?
Jeez, $10,000,000...
Haslam doesn't receive a Mayor's salary does he?
Yes, the principle must be sky high. Maybe that is why he will not release the figures?
I didn't look at Zach Wamp's
I didn't look at Zach Wamp's closely but, at first, I was astonished that he submitted it in crayon, but then I remembered who we are dealing with here.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
The next governor of
The next governor of Tennessee is going to be a Republican. Historically speaking, it's their "turn," and this state is trending red and getting redder. We may not have another Democrat as governor in my lifetime.
And Bill Haslam is a helluva, helluva, helluva lot more reasonable, intelligent, fair-minded, non-crazy and decent than the other two top contenders. He's being pushed to the right, just like Lamar Alexander and Fred Thompson before him, but at least he's not a crazy-eyed reformed cocaine dealer religious zealot or a sleazy auctioneer bought and sold by Big Coal and Big Pharma. Gibbons seems like a decent sort, but he's got about as much chance as another decent sort, Kim McMillan, does on the other side of the aisle.
I've never been able to be a party loyalist, but I've finally figured out what I am, politically speaking.
I'm a pragmatist.
Aren't we all?
You mean that you can see the liberal underneath the conservative clothing? That's being observant, not pragmatic.
You mean that you can see
You mean that you can see the liberal underneath the conservative clothing? That's being observant, not pragmatic
Nope. I supported a real liberal – Madeline Rogero – the first time he ran. I know the difference, and Haslam's far from liberal. He's just not a whacked-out nut, which evidently means he doesn't pass your "conservative" litmus test.
Seriously, I used to think you had a libertarian streak, and I know you don't support turning the countryside over to fatcat developers. So how can you support a theocrat like Wamp or a never-met-a-developer-I-didn't-love favor factory like Ramsey?
Please explain.
.
It isn't easy. But in the end I do not believe Haslam's weak pledge about the income tax. Recently at a fund raiser he said he would not support an income tax because no one in Tennessee wanted one. That is a far cry from saying an income tax would hurt Tennessee. It comes down to not believing Haslam's weak pledge on an income tax.
No doubt a high sales tax is regressive. But everyone pays it and I am sick of so many people being excluded from pulling the wagon. A sales tax limits how much state government can spend. And Tennessee is in much better shape than are states with income taxes.
The Candy Factory and the South Knox Water Front also linger. The cop out on guns in parks lingers. The Bloomberg stunt is a big part of it. And giving more power to Big Jim is a non-starter. Depending on who the Democrat is I may go to the more conservative candidate. The small L libertarian part is intact.
Example of what an "everyone
Example of what an "everyone pulls their weight (poor more than the rich) sales tax consequence: Projected $112 million short fall at UT in 2011-2012. No fat to cut other than professors and programs. Your "logic" about sales taxes fails Econ 101, and is the reason why Tennessee is a retrograde state.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
.
I am fine with a voluntary income tax. The lottery is a successful voluntary tax. Lobby the legislature to create a voluntary income tax. Then you can be happy. And God knows we all want that.
The whole notion of a
The whole notion of a voluntary tax (which a lottery is not; it's gambling) is preposterous. Your type of economics (such as you call it that) fails time and time again and only manages to survive because of the one-way hash that is "you just didn't do it the right way."
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
State income tax
This is something that isn't going to happen in my lifetime. I wish it would. Our system of taxation is regressive and stupid.
If Haslam would support an income tax, I'd actually campaign for him. Otherwise, I share Bean's opinion on this one.
Actually, Betty, I would
Actually, Betty, I would classify Haslam (and Ragsdale for that matter) as neo-liberals--conservative Christians who have no problem spending millions of government dollars on faith-based projects, regardless of how well outcomes are measured, or how many benefit. Please look at how many federal community development block grant dollars (city and county) have been awarded to faith-based nonprofits in recent years.
Neo-liberalism is definitely a trend in local and state politics, and hasn't been discussed nearly enough. Every CDBG dollar being spent to build new homeless housing steals money from other programs, whether it be case management for the homeless, or mobile meals and home weatherization for seniors, as well as a host of other worthy programs that get short-changed.
You have to be one of the
You have to be one of the dumbest people I have ever come across.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
The games we play..
Socially, you'll find many of Tennessee's federal and state Republicans are liberal. Until you get them to a town hall meeting or on Fox.
Of course the ones that are not, are either "Family" members or want to be.
I fear the latter the most.
Republican Year
Should be a Republican year BUT if the Republican nominee is NOT Bill Haslem that may not be the case.
Mountain Republicans are not like Republicans in Middle Tn. or West Tn.
Mountain Republicans have been Republicans since the Civil War.
However,until Goldwater ran for president,there was no Republican Party to speak of in Middle & West Tn.
Therefore,Mountain Republicans,though conservative,are not right wing.
If Wamp or Ramsey win the Republican nomination by going hard right ,in Middle & West Tn,but do not appeal to the Mountain Republicans the Democrat could be elected.
McWherter is the front runner for the Democratic nomination.
If McWherter wins the nomination & does well in Middle & West Tn.with the old Democratic stalwarts.Sweeps Memphis & Nashville.
And if enough Mountain Republicans reject a right wing nominee to keep the Democratic nomineeis within hailing distance of the Republican nominee east of the plateau..McWherter could win.
Mountain Republicans voted for Democrat Jim Cooper for congress when Jim represented the old 4th district.
It's a long shot but a Democrat can win if the Republicans go hard right next year.
Oh, Ramsey & Wamp are going
Oh, Ramsey & Wamp are going to go after the hard right vote, and they're going to wind up splitting it. Haslam wins the primary in a walk.
The puritans will stay home or write in their favorite whackaloon.
And honestly, I think that if the best that the Democratic Party will offer is the Ned Ray legacy, this thing is over before it starts.
____________________________
Calling to the underworld. Come out of the cupboard, you boys and girls.
Bill, bless your
Bill, bless your yallerdawg heart, Ned Ray's big old coattails ain't strong enough to carry that loser of a son any further than he's already drug him.
Why in the world would I, should I, support Mike McWherter for anything?
Spot on
McWherter is one junk ass candidate.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
The fix is in. Mini
The fix is in. Mini McWherter is the result of a complete failure of imagination, but I'm coming to expect that. The TNDP still hasn't figured out what its post-Bredesen identity is going to be. Nepotism is easy enough as a fallback, I suppose, but the name alone won't be enough to provide much resonance (see: the Ty Cobb Gambit).
The saving grace for Haslam is this: Wamp and Ramsey are too goddamned drunk on their own vapors to realize how much that their egos are sandbagging them both. Standing alone, one of them might have a shot. (On the other side, I think it only a matter of time before McMillan throws in the towel. She doesn't impress me as willfully unaware of her surroundings, contra. the GOP field.)
____________________________
Calling to the underworld. Come out of the cupboard, you boys and girls.
Bean u posted u wuz pragmatic
Webster says if one is pragmatic your "philosophy tests the validity of all concepts by their practical results."
My concept was that either Wamp or Ramsey win the Republican nomination by going hard right wing in Middle & West Tn.
Therefore,the practical result of that would be that you would vote for McWherter,the loser son of Big Ned,because you didn't want to see Tn run by right wingers.
Then again you could do what alot of us do when we don't like what we see on the ballot..vote for John Jay Hooker.
But votin fer John Jay aint zactly pragmatic.
Next
Do any of you longtime politicos know the timeline and procession of the Alexander / McWherter arrangement. I've had it explained that the "inside baseball" game goes back to Lamar's first run. Arrangements were made for McWherter to sit out and stay quiet and in so doing, he would become "next."
If this is the case, are these cross party arrangements over? If not, what should we be looking for on the horizon?
From Andy: "And honestly, I think that if the best that the Democratic Party will offer is the Ned Ray legacy, this thing is over before it starts."
Well said. The fact Cammack could not get Party support says more about the party structure than it does Democrats. It sure reeks of "next".
The fact Cammack could not
Just wanted to repeat that. All the pragmatists were counting votes and critiquing party loyalties instead of spreading the message that Tennessee has long held the potential to be a world class economic powerhouse.
So far, what we're looking at in the next Tennessee legislative session (via email from Harry Brooks yesterday):
There's not a lot in the above topics that do anything to promote agriculture, industry or commerce, so where do we start? Local currency in Perry County? We might not be that desperate or industrious, but the idea of a state bank like North Dakota's deserves more consideration than a "that's cute." Is there anything in the 2010 legislative agenda to help 8th grade Tennesseeans do a better job of pointing to Tennessee on a map? Are there any plans in there to not push the demand for gasoline up to five dollars per gallon next summer? Do we need to depend on federal lawmakers to provide globally competitive health care to our citizens because we tried and failed as a state? Will we take it to the Supreme Court if they try to interfere with that failure? Will you potluck some Christmas leftovers to the drunk people at Manhattan's Friday Night Christmas and maybe take one of them home? I will not be cooking for you unless the Mayor of Fountain City brings me a duck or two from the lake up there.
so he has a high net worth, so what?
Doesn't matter to me if his income is 10 million or 10 billion, he's wealthy now, ok? He hasn't always been wealthy - as recently as 25 years ago lived in a very modest home. He doesn't need political power, but is able to serve his city & state without a salary - just like Bredesen who has done a fine job as governor. Pilot is a privately-owned, family company and Haslam is a beneficiary of the company's success. Success is not a dirty word.
And, yes the lowest-income workers who spend everything just to live are paying almost 10% sales tax on everything! But they do get EIC - a refundable tax credit that is way more than 10% of their gross income, so that's a wash.
If Haslam doesn't have a mortgage, for instance, he might lump his charitable and property tax deductions every other year, so any one year does not represent the average... Let's just move on to the real question: Would he be a good governor? His admirable record as Knoxville's Mayor tells me, Yes, he would!
Doesn't matter to me if his
Doesn't matter to me if his income is 10 million or 10 billion, he's wealthy now, ok?
Don't care how much he makes. Do want to know how to get by with paying 5-13% income tax.
I agree. Bill Haslam is a
I agree. Bill Haslam is a really decent, caring guy. I supported Madeleine Rogero in the first mayoral election, and will again, but Haslam has earned my respect by delivering. I also know some personal anecdotes that raise my respect for him considerably (one at my own expense).
Some of us may also want to consider that he probably took some major losses against his income in 2008. It was a pretty bad year, remember? Besides, according to the national accountants organization, the AVERAGE income tax paid by Americans last year was only 9%. That's not the same as the marginal rate, remember, just an average. Anyone who thinks Americans pay too much in taxes is simply ignorant of the reality.
If Tennessee doesn't have an income tax within a few years, we are going to be even further down toward the bottom of the list of states overall. We can't adequately pay for our share of Medicare, schools, libraries and other state functions now.
Then again you could do what
Then again you could do what alot of us do when we don't like what we see on the ballot..vote for John Jay Hooker.
Quote of the day. Heh.
Hidden "tax"
Frank Cagle has an excellent column in today's Metropulse about the burdens of usery, payday loans, etc. I wish half the energy put into debating an income tax would go towards these abuses.
Cagle is half right (as
Cagle is half right (as usual) in that column, but if you look at it really close and think about it, you are reading "the distract the masses" campaign from the "HE"S GOING TO IMPOSE AN INCOME TAX!!!!!" horseshit that will spew from the rest of TNGOP.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
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You give the impression with that tidbit that Haslam will. I thought you were on Haslam's side?
Did you forget Big Jim pushed a state income tax as hard as anyone? Everyone else remembers.
If Bill Haslam wants to be Governor he should sign a contract with the people that he will not under any circumstances support an income tax. He will not do that. What he will do is say no one wants one. You don't need a translator to understand the message.
Signing a contract like that
Signing a contract like that merely damns Tennessee to another 50 years of being the bottom of the barrel, but if that's what the "people" in Tennessee want, well so be it. There's a reason VW is going out of state for workers, Mike.
I am not a Haslam supporter, but since this is a GOP year in TN, I hope he comes out on top of the GOP primary because the other candidates are, frankly, scary. Zach Wamp isn't qualified to wipe asses at a farting contest. Ramsey is as crooked as a dog's hind leg. At least Haslam is a good man and a great administrator.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler Stimulating the economy as best we can! Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!
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Can you site anything to back up your claim about Ramsey?
Something like this?
http://www.tennesseetaxpayers.org/2009/10/senator-tim-burchett-republica...
Political "contracts" are for idiots
Political "contracts," like one where a Gubenatorial candidate says "he will not under any circumstances support an income tax" are nothing more than political stunts. We don't need candidates who wish to practice political absolutism (either definition). Because of the lingering effects of the current recession, the next Governor will have an enormously difficult task in managing this state's affairs. I would have a very hard time supporting any candidate who thinks it's a good idea to tie his own hands in such a significant way, just to get some votes.
Because of the debacle of Don "Vanilla" Sundquist's efforts, no Tennessee Governor is going to tread lightly into the income tax arena. If, on the other hand, the state's finances could become so dire that the choice becomes an income tax over bankruptcy, an intelligent candidate will keep his options open.
Responsible executives cannot operate in a world of political purity and absolutes. That's why single issue advocates should rarely be elected to office. That's why President Obama is currently being pummeled from both directions right now. His approach to healthcare, the climate change conference, and his Afghanistan policy are all examples of pragmatism in action, which isn't making anyone on the far right or left very happy. In the end, though, he has a better chance of accomplishing something good in each arena. All-or-nothing types usually end up with nothing.
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