Submitted by R. Neal on Tue, 2009/11/03 - 10:20am

Knox County Commissioner Richard Briggs has posted a draft of the proposed recall amendment at the County Commission forum website with some discussion points.

RELATED: Previous discussion here

Text of the draft amendment after the jump...

continued...

Sec. 8.05. Draft for Recall Amendment

(A) This recall provision is applicable only to officials holding the positions of Knox County Mayor, County Commissioner, Law Director, Sheriff, County Clerk, Trustee, Register of Deeds, Property Assessor, and member of the Knox County Board of Education. The Judicial Branch, including the court clerks, are not subject to recall.

(B) Such recall petition, process and recall election shall meet the requirements of state law.

(C) Notwithstanding subsection (B), in the case of a recall of an official elected county-wide, the petition shall be signed by fifteen percent (15%) of those registered to vote in the county; provided, however, that in the case of a recall of a county commissioner or member of the Board of Education, the petition shall be signed by fifteen percent (15%) of the those registered to vote in the district represented by said official. No such petition shall be circulated until after the official has served one full year in office.

(D) Notwithstanding subsection (B), the signed recall petition shall be filed with the Knox County Election Commission within ninety (90) days after final certification of the proper form of the petition by the Election Commission.

(E) In a recall election, the following question shall be presented to each qualified voter:
"Shall _________(name of official) be recalled and removed from the Office of _________(name of office) on the following grounds:

(F) If a majority of the voters vote "No," the incumbent shall remain in office. If a majority of the voters vote "Yes," the incumbent shall be deemed recalled and removed from office upon the certification of the recall by the Knox County Election Commission.

(G) In the event the incumbent is recalled, subject to provision (H) and pending the election provided for in Section H, the County Commission may fill the vacancy temporarily; provided, however, that said temporary appointee shall serve only until the election results are certified and the newly elected official is qualified.

(H) In the event the incumbent is recalled, an election to fill the vacancy shall be held at the next general election occurring at least 60 days following certification of the recall. All such elections shall be held in the manner provided by general law for holding a county general election as follows:
1) Political parties recognized under Tennessee Code, Title 2, Chapter 13 may nominate their candidates for office by any method authorized under the rules of the party.
2) Candidates not affiliated with a recognized political party shall be listed as independent
3) The person elected to fill the vacancy created by the recall shall serve the remainder of the term of that office.

(I) It shall be a violation of the Knox County Charter, punishable by a fine of One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), for any person, directly or indirectly, personally or through any other person:

(1) By force or threats to prevent or endeavor to prevent any qualified voter from signing or promoting a petition for recall;
(2) To make use of any violence, force or restrain or to inflict or threaten the infliction of any injury, damage, harm or loss; or
(3) In any manner to practice intimidation upon or against any person in order to induce or compel such person to sign or refrain from signing a petition for recall;
(4) Any Knox County voter who has reasonable suspicion of the foregoing shall report said acts to the Knox County Election Commission, the Knox County Sheriff, the District Attorney General, and the Knox County Law Director.
(5) The General Sessions Court shall have jurisdiction of such Charter violation.
(6) This Charter subsection is in addition to and does not supplant any provision of state law which may render any of these acts a felony or misdemeanor.

(J) If any section or provision of this recall provision shall be held unconstitutional, invalid or inapplicable to any persons or circumstances, then it is intended and declared by the people of the County that all other sections or provisions of this recall provision and their application to all other persons and circumstances shall be severable and shall not be affected by any such decision.
(Ref. of 8-7-08)

104
vote
Gregg Lonas's picture

same percentage of signatures

Looks like he in NOT considering any changes to the amount of signatures needed for a recall petition. As I have stated before the current formula and the one Mr. Briggs seems to be supporting is too high.

Anonymously Nine's picture

As I have stated before the

As I have stated before the current formula and the one Mr. Briggs seems to be supporting is too high.

Can you explain why you feel it is too high?

ShannonSz's picture

as posted on KNS, if you

as posted on KNS, if you have only 10k people voting in the city and you have 100k registered voters, fifteen percent of the 'registered' voters could be higher than the actual number of votes cast in he first place to elect an official.

We need to change the percentage to apply to the actual 'voters'....

thank about it, registered voters can also show people who no longer live in a community.

We need to review the Amendment as a community and decide, based on better practices of other communities.

the NCSL is a good example of how other states/communities handle this issue and applying a statistic to a arbitrary number is not appropriate IMO.

Anonymously Nine's picture

as posted on KNS, if you

as posted on KNS, if you have only 10k people voting in the city and you have 100k registered voters, fifteen percent of the 'registered' voters could be higher than the actual number of votes cast in he first place to elect an official.

The aberration of historically low voter turnout in the City should not be the basis to decide anything. Keep in mind the City of Knoxville has its own recall amendment and that amendment takes precedence for City offices. So this is is not a valid argument.

Excluding that argument, why is the number too high? We should never allow low turnout to be a benefit downstream for a recall petition. People have an obligation to their community to be involved and vote.

That is a dangerous slippery slope for recall. We do not want to go full California. Everybody knows you never go full California.

ShannonSz's picture

ahhh yes, but if it takes

ahhh yes, but if it takes four years to verify the voter's residency, how many registered voters have moved but are still on the roster?

what is your objection to placing this on the ballot for the voters to decide....after all, this is all the petition does.

I feel covering any objection, as shown on the NCSL stats, there are many ways to limit the improper use of the recall petition, such as putting condition for which it applies.

However, overall, without a special election, it is only costly to the applicant and those in the county who need to verify the count. It is up to the voter to decide if they want any official out of office, all of the voters.

what are your feelings on the issue, and why?.

Anonymously Nine's picture

what are your feelings on

what are your feelings on the issue, and why?.

It is a technical issue. Are you suggesting the City change their recall amendment? That makes no sense.

Also, there is no verification of the voter's residency to obtain the 15% number. That doesn't exist. The only verification is the signature and residency of the individual voter on the recall petition.

While you may not like what Briggs is doing, I have a feeling it is technically sound. Splitting hairs is the quickest way to create a log jam. I would suggest trying to keep this simple. Remember, County Commission has to vote on it.

metulj's picture

Ugh

"That is a dangerous slippery slope for recall."

*shakes head in disbelief*

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Stimulating the economy as best we can!

Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!

ShannonSz's picture

please explain why? most

please explain why? most states use percentages of those who voted in a particular election to determine a recall. this makes sense to me because these are the people who voted the person in and they are the ones who supposedly should want to change their vote.

again,it would be nice to hear your position and justification for the same.

metulj's picture

again,it would be nice to

again,it would be nice to hear your position and justification for the same.

No, it wouldn't be nice as he has no position. It's just line noise as usual.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Stimulating the economy as best we can!

Further stimulation with Yoga Wear!

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Why I think our required signature number is too high

Number Nine asked: "Why is the number too high?"

Nine, if you missed it on the other recall thread, I shared data in three posts on the practices of the other 18 states that allow recall of their state and local officials. I used each of their formulas to determine how many petition signatures would be required of our Lockett recall group, if these other states' formulas applied to our local effort.

Originally, I sought and found the state statues for California (California Election Code, Section 11221, http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/ELEC/1/d11/3/2/s11221), Washington (Revised Code of Washington, 29A.56.18, http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=29A.56.180) and Wisconsin (Wisconsin State Code, 9.10, http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&...).

However, when I discovered Commissioner Briggs' post on the Commission Forum detailing the practices of the remaining 15 of 18 states (Commission Forum post of October 25, https://knoxgov.net/commission/commissionforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=165&s...), I just used the formulas he had found.

I also looked up the number of votes last cast in the 2008 Knox County general election for law director (34,404 per Election Commission, http://www.knoxcounty.org/election/results/cumulative_080708.pdf) and the 2006 state general election for governor (122,481 per Election Commission, http://www.knoxcounty.org/election/results/cumulative_11072006.pdf), both of which are numbers frequently used by these other states as the base in determining the number of petition signatures they require to recall a given local official. Finally, I also estimated, toward the high end, the number of Knox County's registered voters (265,000).

When I applied each state's formula to our local and state vote counts to determine what each state's rule would be in our Lockett recall effort, here is the picture that emerged:

Alaska:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 votes for law director x 25% = 8,601 sigs)

Arizona:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 25% = 8,601 sigs)

California:
10% of registered voters
(265,000 X 10% = 26,500 sigs)

Colorado:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 25% = 8,601 sigs)

Georgia:
15% of eligible voters at time of last election
(265,000 registered voters x 15% = 39,750 sigs)

Idaho:
20% of eligible voters at time of last election
(265,000 X 20% = 53,000 sigs)

Kansas:
40% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 40% = 13,761 sigs)

Louisiana:
33.3% of eligible voters at time of last election
(265,000 x 33% = 88,245 sigs)

Michigan:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 25% = 8,601 sigs)

Minnesota:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 25% = 8,601 sigs)

Montana:
10% of eligible voters at time of last election
(265,000 x 10% = 26,500 sigs)

Nevada:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 25% = 8,601 sigs)

New Jersey:
25% of registered voters in the district of the official being recalled
(265,000 x 25% = 66,250 sigs)

North Dakota:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 25% - 8,601 sigs)

Oregon:
15% of votes cast in last election for governor
(122,481 votes for governor x 15% = 18, 372 sigs)

Rhode Island:
15% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 15% = 5,160 sigs)

Washington:
25% of votes last cast for the official being recalled
(34,404 x 25% = 8,601 sigs)

Wisconsin:
25% of votes cast in the last election for governor
(122,481 x 25% = 30,620 sigs)

Summary:
Among 18 other states, only 3 states call for more recall petition sigs than does TN.
Among 18 other states, only 1 state calls for the same volume of recall petition sigs as does TN.
Among 18 other states, 14 states call for fewer recall petition sigs than does TN.
Among 18 other states, 9 states call for 8,601 or fewer recall petition sigs.

Relative to the 38,000 to 40,000 signatures Greg Mackay has explained will apply to our local effort to recall Bill Lockett, this is why I think our Knox County number is too high.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Lockett recall before BPR hearing or no recall possible at all

On a related topic, I've come to realize in speaking to clubs and groups in recent weeks that some people didn't understand why our Lockett recall group is scheduling a petition drive in January through March 2010, before the BPR hearing coming up May 25 and 26, 2010.

Did you understand that if we don't begin the petition effort before the BPR hearing, it isn't possible to do it at all during Lockett's remaining term?

Below is the detailed schedule as to how a recall unfolds under state/local law. This schedule assumes time for one petitioner error as to the form of the petition and time for the petitioner to correct that error. A petitioner may only submit a given petition twice, after which time another petitioner must be found to submit the same petition. Parenthetical notes detail maximum time local law allows for each step, as follows:

1) Petitioner submits petition to Election Commission
2) Election Commission reviews petition and finds error (allow 30 days)
3) Petitioner corrects petition error and resubmits (allow 15 days)
4) Election Commission again reviews petition and certifies it (allow 5 days)
5) Petitioner collects petition signatures (allow 90 days)
6) Petitioner re-submits petition for verification of signatures, at least 60 days in advance of general election (allow 60 days)

Total days needed to process petition = 200 days

Conversely, here is the number of days available in which to launch a Lockett recall to appear on the November 2010 ballot, if petitioner waits until after the BPR’s hearing is concluded on May 25 & 26, 2010:

Days avail. in May (May 27-31): 5
Days avail. in June (June 1-30): 30
Days avail. in July (July 1-31): 31
Days avail. in August (Aug 1-31): 31
Days avail. in Sept (Sept 1 & 2 only): 2, because petition must be certified at least 60 days prior to the general election

Total days available to process petition for November 2010 = 98 days

You see, then, why a recall effort begun after the May 2010 hearing can't result in a November 2010 ballot question.

What's more, no county wide election of any kind is scheduled for 2011.

What's more, the first county wide election of 2012 is Super Tuesday in February 2012, which is also the date of the primary election for Lockett's successor.

What's more, our existing local recall law disallows any recall of an elected official in his/her last year of office...and 2012 would be Lockett's last year.

Therefore, our Lockett recall group must begin the petition effort prior to the May 2010 BPR hearing in order to place a recall question on either the August or November 2010 ballot, as no other opportunity exists in the remainder of Lockett's term of office.

Anonymously Nine's picture

Could you all make this more confusing?

Concise. You could be concise. It would help.

My understanding, which is probably wrong because no one can understand this mess, is that there will be two amendments for voters to vote on in maybe August. One under the present recall amendment to recall Lockett. The other an improved recall amendment from Commissioner Briggs.

In ten thousand words or less, can you simply explain if that is correct?

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Yes and yes

Yes, Nine, we are aiming for a Lockett recall question on the August 2010 ballot. We expect to file our petition in early to mid-January.

What I was explaining is that there's no need for us to shoot for the November 2010 ballot, though, because even if we were to wait for that election, we'd still have to begin our petition effort before that BPR hearing concludes on May 25 and 26. Either way, then, we have to begin our effort before any of us knows the BPR's decision.

And yes, assuming commission adopts revisions to the existing recall amendment at their Dec/Jan meetings (or later), there will be a second question on the August 2010 ballot for that matter.

Any change commission makes to the signature threshold in the existing recall amendment WILL NOT apply to the Lockett recall effort, of course (because that effort will have already concluded as of the August election date).

However, we're told by the State Election Commission that any change commission makes to the special election provision WILL apply to the Lockett recall effort (because that portion of the effort relating to choosing his successor won't have yet transpired as of the August election date).

Anonymously Nine's picture

First thanks for the concise

First thanks for the concise reply.

However, we're told by the State Election Commission that any change commission makes to the special election provision WILL apply to the Lockett recall effort (because that portion of the effort relating to choosing his successor won't have yet transpired as of the August election date).

The part above makes no sense.

It would seem if Lockett is recalled under the present recall amendment that all parts apply. The State Election Commission has no purview over the Knox County Charter.

I am amazed at the opinion above that comes from State Election Commission. It sounds like they will allow a blending of the present recall amendment and the possible new one if it passes. I don't see how that is possible. Lockett can not be recalled under two different recall amendments at the same time.

How many times must we go through the charter trumps the state constitution, no it doesn't crap?

The Knox County Charter is proving to be impossible for anyone to interpret. Is it really worth the trouble to keep this thing? I almost wish that Chancellor Weaver would give another list of deficiencies for a Charter Review Committee to address.

This is too complex. I don't see how voters will be able to figure it out.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Law to concurrent effect is permissable

It is the opinion of Beth Henry Robertson, attorney with the State Coordinator of Elections office, that Knox County may avoid conducting two special elections for Lockett's successor by simply indicating in their revision of the recall amendment that its changes are effective with the date of the August 2010 election.

Law may be made to concurrent effect (in this case, in a manner applicable to the concurrent Lockett recall), just not to retroactive effect, Robertson says.

Greg Mackay has answered this question from media on several occasions recently, citing Robertson's legal opinion.

(The issue doesn't have anything to do with whether the charter trumps the state constitution, though.)

Anonymously Nine's picture

It is the opinion of Beth

It is the opinion of Beth Henry Robertson, attorney with the State Coordinator of Elections office, that Knox County may avoid conducting two special elections for Lockett's successor by simply indicating in their revision of the recall amendment that its changes are effective with the date of the August 2010 election.

The road to hell is paved with opinions. It isn't law. And it doesn't make sense.

There is a lawsuit right now because the State Coordinator of Elections office issued an opinion and a flawed illegal Charter Amendment passed.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Sit tight

Come December or so, we'll get to hear from Deputy Law Director Joe Jarret and Commissioner/attorney Bud Armstrong on this point, too--and maybe some others.

We should have a pretty good sample of opinions by then, don't you think?

Anonymously Nine's picture

I am just observing that if

I am just observing that if you go down this road there will be a lawsuit. Most lawsuits of this variety begin with an opinion or opinions.

Consider the track record of opinions from the State Election Commission, the Law Department, and the Attorney General. They haven't held up well in court have they?

The problem in many cases in that the Knox County Charter is incomplete and has contradictions in it. Until the Charter is fixed or revoked we are wasting tax payer money.

This is a poor idea.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Which opinions?

Consider the track record of opinions from the State Election Commission, the Law Department, and the Attorney General. They haven't held up well in court have they?

Off the top of my head, I can remember only the AG opinion on term limits that got sunk.

What opinions are you remembering, specifically?

Anonymously Nine's picture

What opinions are you

What opinions are you remembering, specifically?

The opinion from State Election Commissioner Brooks Thompson where he overruled his own attorneys and allowed Greg Mackay to simultaneously allow voter registration and the signature of Charter Amendment petitions. That resulted in a law suit also.

The opinion from State Election Commissioner Brooks Thompson that term limited County Commissioners could run which resulted in multiple lawsuits.

The latest opinion from Robert Cooper State Attorney General that landlords can restrict firearms in rental agreements.

This could go on all day.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

One I mentioned already, the other two are still open

The opinion from State Election Commissioner Brooks Thompson where he overruled his own attorneys and allowed Greg Mackay to simultaneously allow voter registration and the signature of Charter Amendment petitions. That resulted in a law suit also.

I don't profess to know what TN's law says in this regard, but in looking up the sig thresholds of other states earlier this week, I found that lots of other states allow this practice. It's detailed in both their statutes and in their recall instruction handbooks compiled for citizens' use.

Besides, that suit is still open, so I don't know how you can yet suggest that the practice was illegal?

The opinion from State Election Commissioner Brooks Thompson that term limited County Commissioners could run which resulted in multiple lawsuits.

Thompson couldn't opine; he wasn't an attorney. He was simply restating the same AG opinion on term limits I already cited above.

Yes, I agree with you on that point.

The latest opinion from Robert Cooper State Attorney General that landlords can restrict firearms in rental agreements.

I didn't know any suit had been filed in this very recent question. Surely it hasn't yet been settled?

I think we should reflect on the number of successful suits challenging these legal opinions, not the number of frivolous suits filed in dispute.

(I also think parties filing frivilous suits should have to absorb the court costs associated with them.)

Anyway, our citizens' group has done its due diligence in requesting the legal opinion before suggesting that commission should amend the recall amendment this way. That's all we can do.

ShannonSz's picture

I see many faults in Dr

I see many faults in Dr Brigg's proposal and feel strongly it should be put before the people in open meetings to decide if this in fact is the direction our communities wish to go.

The NCSL has a good outline of who other communities/stated approach the recall and why....they show the pros and cons of making this process easier and I feel the public needs to select which way to go this time and not leave it up to one or two people to decide on such an amendment.

Amendments are important with regard to far reaching ramifications and this should be fully researched before changes are made.

ShannonSz's picture

I don't particularly like

I don't particularly like the PARTY 'appointment' process....but I am one who feel the law director, for one, should not be elected in the first place and would like to see party affiliation eleminated as criteria for local offices.

Abuse of the recall has not been a reality from what I have read, even in the most lenient recal states. And in states with loose requirements for recall, there are hardly any successful recalls in the first place. It just does not happen.

Mello's picture

I like the percentage based

I like the percentage based on actual voters who show up at the last gubernatorial election.

The following bit of TCA 5-1-204

The petition shall be signed by at least a number of registered voters in the county equal to ten percent (10%) of the total number of votes cast in such county for governor at the last preceding gubernatorial election;

is a good example of just how to phrase it but a raise in the percentage is needed.

Of course, there needs to be a bonus round! If the total petition signatures equal 90% or more of the actual votes that officeholder received when he/she was elected then we will just skip having a recall election and proceed straight to the tar and feathering event.

ShannonSz's picture

agree....I am pushing for a

agree....I am pushing for a sunshined meeting with the commission before they make any decisions to discuss it and show support for certain modifications. In the long run I feel this is long overdue as keeping it hard to accomplish a recall is what a politician would like, not the taxpayer and voter who is cut out.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Amendments may be proposed on first reading

Guys, the discussion at the County Commission meeting Monday a week ago was that Commissioner Briggs should correct the recall amendment only to address the provision for the costly special election.

Commissioners agreed that other possible changes could be proposed as amendments when the ordinance is ready for first reading, which is now looking like December.

The last time I spoke with him, Commissioner Briggs proposed a signature threshold in the neighborhood of 20-25K, although he didn't explain to me by what index he thought we should arrive at that number.

So far as I know, he still intends to propose an amendment to that effect at first reading.

Meanwhile, he has submitted a draft to address only the concern his peers asked him to address.

ShannonSz's picture

in view of the fact he is

in view of the fact he is communicating this to several of us, don't you think involving others and allowing their input is more appropriate by encouraging this meeting rather than coveting the information? I certainly do and encourage others to support this...it is not up to any one of us to decide. It appears this is what is happening as it did with the Lambert/Paone situation.

I am communicating this directly to him and would appreciate your support in doing the same....and yes, that includes number 9 and anyone else who might have input.

ShannonSz's picture

20k percent is the threshold

20k is the threshold usng fifteen percent of the actual voters...I have asked for further modificatios since his communications with me of other factors of the amendment and discussion of the same.

for reasons beyond this amendment which I can't share at this time, I am not comfortable with leaving it up to the Lambert/Paone or any other indiviual to decide. This needs to be addressed and open to the public

Tamara Shepherd's picture

"Coveting information?"

in view of the fact he is communicating this to several of us, don't you think involving others and allowing their input is more appropriate by encouraging this meeting rather than coveting the information?

I'm not following. Who is "coveting information?"

I plan to write commissioners to share that state-by-state data I outlined on the other recall thread and to ask them if they might adopt a sig threshold in the mid-range (which does appear to be this 20-25K Commissioner Briggs mentioned a week or two back).

If it was I who seemed to "covet information," I didn't mean to. I thought I'd been sharing more than might have been of interest :-)

ShannonSz's picture

I was at the commission

I was at the commission meeting and forwarded the feed to you....one can't just jump up and say they personally have some belief and be of consequence.

I believe the commission is aware of many things but these issues need to be shared with the public or it is subject to politics as usual.

The commission needs to know what the public wants, not just what my or your statistics are.

This happened before and I would hope you would encourage others to participate, not just listen to your opinion or my opinion.

This may be 'crap' to you, but I suspect others would not be so inclined to feel the same.

This will hardly be addressed unless others ask it to be addressed.

The fact you personally are sending a letter, means you personally are sending a letter and it does not put enough pressure on anyone to address the issues.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Hey, I like the idea of a public meeting...

This may be 'crap' to you, but I suspect others would not be so inclined to feel the same.

I have no earthly idea where this level of anger is coming from...

I have thought since the day in early October when our Lockett recall group pulled our petition that a public meeting for discussion purposes is a fine idea. Given that Greg Mackay has asked Commissioner Briggs not to place the item on the November agenda, timing seems to allow for such a meeting, too. And I think Commissioner Briggs would likely accomodate people making such a request.

Assuming the first reading of the revised amendment occurs at the December commission meeting, don't we have seven or eight weeks to make a public meeting for discussion happen?

Gregg Lonas's picture

Why dont you just call him

Folks I enjoy the discussion on this topic here on Knoxviews and the recall ammendment needs to dealt with. Please just call Commissioner Briggs. I know a few people that have and I think maybe it may help to do so. Dont wear him out, but thank him and tell him your concerns. You can also call your own county commissioner if he is not yours. Remember it is not just about Bill Lockett or Bill Phillips we need to have a good charter that is fair to citizens and the elected officials.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Yes, Gregg--call or write

Yes, Gregg--call or write commissioners, either one.

I wrote all 19 (and copied Mackay/Frith/Jarret) on this topic of the signature threshold just today.

To write all 19 commissioners simultaneously, just send an e-mail to commission@knoxcounty.org.

To write selected commissioners by name (or to write Mackay/Frith/Jarret), the e-mail address format is firstname.lastname@knoxcounty.org.

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