Sun
Jul 26 2009
12:28 am

New gun laws took effect July 1, and they are already working as anticipated. One dead, one taken to UT hospital from Monroe Co. The shooting occurred in a karaoke bar near a Tellico campground, so it's a bit of a two-fer.

290
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Andy Axel's picture

And did the perp have a

And did the perp have a HCP?

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Nobody's picture

That's terrible! What a

That's terrible! What a stupid piece of legislation. I can't remember anyone ever getting shot in a bar before.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Andy Axel's picture

I feel safer already. If

I feel safer already. If only everyone had been armed!

____________________________

Dirty deeds done dirt cheap! Special holidays, Sundays and rates!

redmondkr's picture

Stacey X should introduce

Stacey X should introduce legislation allowing concealed-carry to cockfights.

We could break new ground here in Redneckia.


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JRWnKnox's picture

What makes you think it's

What makes you think it's illegal now?

gonzone's picture

Well

Not to sound crass and insensitive, but perhaps this is Darwinism at work?

If all the dummies all hang out at the same watering holes then maybe they will end up killing one another off?

I know you'll never catch me in the midst of a bunch of armed and drunk fools.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

Nobody's picture

amazing

It never ceases to amaze me what stupid assumptions you can make. How does this incident have ANYTHING to do with the new gun legislation-which only effect PERMIT holders, not every joe blow that decides to shoot somebody-dont look now, but thats been happening for hundreds of years before any 2nd amendment legislation was passed. Tell me-what other parts of the constitution would you like to do away with?

reform4's picture

Either be silent an thought a fool...

... or open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Go to the HCP site and search for "Joshua Anderson." The shooter is a HCP holder. With the age would confirm, but a dollar to donuts, it's the same guy.

Nobody's picture

I am as opposed to this

I am as opposed to this idiotic new law as anyone, but to be completely fair, I'm seeing two HCP records for "Joshua Anderson" and one for "J Anderson" and zero for "Josh Anderson." None of these guys, however, is listed as a resident of Monroe County.

Linoge's picture

Coincidentally, the man who

Coincidentally, the man who did the shooting was not a handgun carry permit holder: (link...)

So, how does that shoe leather taste?

rikki's picture

Second-hand, unconfirmed

Second-hand, unconfirmed information is hardly proof that this Josh Anderson is not the Joshua Anderson in Ooltewah with a carry permit, but it doesn't much matter to me. When the legislature invites permitted gun owners to carry in parks and bars, they increase the odds of shootings in those places, whether by legal carriers or otherwise.

A well regulated militia has no business being armed in places of leisure. State lawmakers are not affirming the Second Amendment with the laws they passed; they are encouraging vigilantism. I fully support the right to own guns and to take up arms against invaders or a repressive government. Allowing guns where alcohol is served does nothing to secure our right to act as a citizen militia.

This is obviously a strange case. Anderson's release and the glaring lack of information makes it hard to draw any conclusions, but there is no reason for mixing guns with campgrounds and karaoke.

Linoge's picture

What, as opposed to the

What, as opposed to the incontrovertible, absolute, unquestionable proof that you have that one of the two Joshua Anderson's in the Commercial Appeal's database is this Josh Anderson?

Do not make me laugh. You are in no position to be casting aspersions on anyone... of course, that you are so willing to do so without even the slightest shred of verifiable evidence speaks volumes as to the veracity of your position.

The right of free human beings to defend their lives and the lives of their families is something that is evident everywhere, regardless of whether or not alcohol is being served, bad singing is taking place, or tents are being pitched. It is well and truly about time Tennessee recognized that fact, and I applaud our lawmakers for restoring a right that was once unjustly denied to law-abiding citizens. If only all governments were moving in that direction...

(Oh, and by the way, the Supreme Court recently affirmed the right to keep and bear arms as an individual right, separate and distinct from militia service, and not dependent upon it. In fact, all nine Justices, even those who dissented with the actual case (D.C. vs. Heller, by the by) agreed that the right is an individual one. It might serve you well to keep up with recent events if you are going to try and discuss them.)

rikki's picture

The right to keep and bear

The right to keep and bear arms is an individual right. If there were rosters, it would not be a citizen militia; it would be government. I'm not entirely comfortable with being able to look up Joshua Anderson's carry permit on the Internet, nor do I want to deny someone with legitimate concerns the security of a firearm.

I still think a well regulated militia would be willing to disarm to enter leisure zones like campgrounds and restaurants. Rules like that get suspended in times of war, and the defiance enshrined in the Second Amendment implies disobedience, so our laws should reflect peace and let war declare its own exemptions. As a general rule, keep guns and alcohol separate.

As to this particular case, the defendant's release and the paucity of details is not so much cause for celebration as a red flag. How can there be a dead body and no charge serious enough to detain the alleged shooter? Is there another suspect? If the wounded man was part of a crime that justified lethal force, he is still alive and can be charged. Right now the official story makes little sense.

Linoge's picture

As to this particular case,

As to this particular case, the defendant's release and the paucity of details is not so much cause for celebration as a red flag. ... Right now the official story makes little sense.

So you freely admit to maligning an entire cross-section of the Tennessee citizenry, the politicians responsible for the bill in question, and the nature of the bill itself, all based on very few public details and a story that, while it may not make sense, does not tie into handgun carry permit holders being able to lawfully defend themselves wherever they may be (as citizens should be able to).

Well, at least you can identify your blind intolerance...

metulj's picture

"Well, at least you can

"Well, at least you can identify your blind intolerance... "

Yes, because people who own guns are phenotypically akin to people born with different colored skin or what not. One can or cannot decide to buy guns. One cannot decide to be black, Asian, or so forth. If you bothered to pay attention in freshman courses at the university, then you'd know this is a category error of the first kind. The cognitive dissonance of the "gun owners are being discriminated against" rhetoric is fun. Last I checked, this ersatz minority had its evil enemies on the run. I guess they are not on the run enough.

Also, the word "citizen" has nothing to do with be able to defend oneself. The original meaning comes from the notion of living collectively within a cathedral town and never carried any other connotation beyond that. We can debate the practice of citizenship as being someone willing to defend the citizenry, but do you want to open that can of "exact opposite of individual rights" worms?

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

Stimulating the economy as best we can!

Linoge's picture

Who knew that one could only

Who knew that one could only and exclusively be intolerant of genetic traits... Might want to inform the dictionary-writers of that newfound aspect of the word!

metulj's picture

It's not tolerant to be

It's not tolerant to be intolerant of intolerance!

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

Stimulating the economy as best we can!

Linoge's picture

Of course, I guess clicking

Of course, I guess clicking through on a few links is asking too much of you, especially since it exposes your stereotyping-without-facts for what it is. In the past five minutes, I clicked over to Silences post, from there, I clicked through to the "Advocate and Democrat", and the second major "Local News Story" was this: (link...)

Witnesses told Brookshire Cole and Adams had been arguing with Josh Anderson, 27, Madisonville, over an alleged hand gesture when the three began fighting.

Hm. Madisonville != Ooltewah. So much for your theory, eh?

"He doesn't have a permit for the gun as far as we know," Monroe County Sheriff Bill Bivens said. "Some people have said this shooting happened because of the 'guns in bars' law, but I'm not sure it applies here as he didn't have a permit to start with. And while it might seem obvious alcohol was involved, we don't know yet whether anybody involved was drunk above the legal limit."

Whoopsies. More jumping to conclusions on your part. You just keep working on that blind intolerance... Trust me, it makes my life so much easier.

Andy Axel's picture

Somehow, I don't think that

Somehow, I don't think that someone carrying illegally, drinking while carrying, and killing one person and wounding another over a hand gesture is quite exactly the vindication you were looking for.

I'd keep the search open for your poster child.

____________________________

Dirty deeds done dirt cheap! Special holidays, Sundays and rates!

Linoge's picture

Somehow, I do not think that

Somehow, I do not think that someone who was not a handgun carry permit holder, potentially not drinking while carrying, and potentially lawfully defending himself from two agressors is quite exactly the vindication you were looking for.

I would keep the search open for your ways to demonize handgun carry permit holders.

rikki's picture

I would keep the search open

I would keep the search open for your ways to demonize handgun carry permit holders.

Gunnies are the soggiest bedwetters on the planet. If I'm demonizing anyone, it's a handful of grandstanding politicians. I have no problem with gun owners or permit holders. I do think the State of Tennessee should look into handing out free diapers with each carry permit.

Rich's picture

"I have no problem with gun

"I have no problem with gun owners or permit holders. I do think the State of Tennessee should look into handing out free diapers with each carry permit."

Do you think before you write?

Linoge's picture

If I'm demonizing anyone,

If I'm demonizing anyone, it's a handful of grandstanding politicians.

Right, because restoring an unjustly-denied civil right should be the last thing on those politicans' minds!

*headdesk* For being a "progressive/liberal" community, it would seem as though quite a few members do not have the foggiest of clues what the latter word means...

Factchecker's picture

Depends on whose ox...

Tell me-what other parts of the constitution would you like to do away with?

The parts that you imagine giving you entitlement to encroach on the rights of others.

metulj's picture

Ah, yes. The parts of John

Ah, yes. The parts of John Locke forgotten by "libertarians" as soon as they become inconvenient....

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

Stimulating the economy as best we can!

JRWnKnox's picture

And how do I (or other

And how do I (or other permit holders) "encroach on the rights of others" by carrying concealed handguns? No one is arguing that illegal use of force, whether involving guns or not, is acceptable. Carrying guns is a lot like driving a car. You have the freedom to drive a car, but the moment you become reckless or intoxicated, the State can intervene.

I didn't stop with the Tenn. permit class. I've spent money on training with some of the best instructors. I'm well aware of Tennessee's laws on carrying and using firearms. I practice regularly, using law enforcement qualification courses. In fact (not just opinion), I can hold my own with 99% of police officers.

I don't know if the Josh Anderson involved in the shooting was the same as the permit holder. Seems like there's a lot of jumping to conclusions that the shooter wasn't defending himself.

BTW, I'm unclear as to how the incident was a "bit of a two-fer". I have an idea what was meant, but I'll give the writer the benefit of the doubt for now.

rikki's picture

When the new carry laws were

When the new carry laws were up for debate, gunnies argued that states allowing guns where alcohol is served do not experience any rise in gun violence in such establishments. Now we see just such a violent incident within a month of the new law taking effect, and a gunny shows up to argue that such shootings are as old as the hills. In other words, the very evidence gunnies said did not exist is now so obvious its a given.

The big push this year was to allow guns in parks and in bars, and this shooting combined both, thus its a two-fer.

Nobody's picture

they let the guy go

So they let the guy go--imagine that. Don't fall getting off your high-horse.

metulj's picture

Don't fall getting off your

Don't fall getting off your high-horse.

Because that's what this is really all about. Right, Tex?

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

Stimulating the economy as best we can!

JRWnTN's picture

"The big push this year was

"The big push this year was to allow guns in parks and in bars, and this shooting combined both, thus its a two-fer."

Except this did not take place in a park. From the news reports I read, it was a private campground. Permit holders were never prohibited from carrying on such private property, unless the owner posted a sign. The prohibition on carrying in parks only applied to publicly owned property

Actually, if you read the statute on parks, etc., it prohibits possession of certain weapons as defined by another statute. The other statute involves machine guns, rocket launchers, etc. Although the Attorney General says is applies to the common pistol or rifle, he's really stretching it.

Rich's picture

So a man carrying a pistol

So a man carrying a pistol illegally, ie no HCP, shoots two other men in an argument, and rikki, andy, and redmondkr somehow leap to the conclusion that this is an indictment of those who carry legally.

Wow.

By that logic, your ability to take prescription medicine would be endangered every time a junkie shoots up.

No wonder your side is losing the argument.

rikki's picture

leap to the conclusion that

leap to the conclusion that this is an indictment of those who carry legally.

No, an indictment of a grandstanding General Assembly with no clue how to confront our state's actual problems.

metulj's picture

What I find humorous in all

What I find humorous in all this is that these dullards are all about worrying about who is going to shoot them in a restaurant, church, little league game, and so forth that they go armed to the like, checking their "six" the whole time, but they aren't terribly concerned about why they think they need to act like fraidy cats all the time. It's exactly the kind of thinking that puts EVERYBODY on the torso heap in the end.

And Rich's analogy is, as usual, turgid and ahistorical.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

Stimulating the economy as best we can!

Nobody's picture

This thread is a waste of bandwidth...

Typical knee jerking, “progressive” reaction; very similar to obama playing the race card before having bothered with the facts.

Rich's picture

metulj, you say the sweetest

metulj, you say the sweetest things...

Rich's picture

So then, you really don't

So then, you really don't mind that I can carry my gun into a Ruby Tuesdays?

Then why would you say:
"When the legislature invites permitted gun owners to carry in parks and bars, they increase the odds of shootings in those places, whether by legal carriers or otherwise.

A well regulated militia has no business being armed in places of leisure."

Apparently, you are indicting law abiding citizens.

Nobody's picture

Funny how these "thinking"

Funny how these "thinking" liberal types bash those who choose to carry as being "fraidy cats" - when there really are real, live, evil thugs who would kill their own mother for a pack of smokes, yet they are afraid of inanimate objects and people who, by the very fact that they have a carry permit, are law-abiding citizens. So WHO is being irrational and phobic here?

Further, a review of Tennessee code (which I do not have at hand at the moment to cite the exact code - but you can look it up yourself) shows that while a person may not carry in public legally without a permit, they still can use a handgun for self-defense without penalty for illegally going armed.

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