Submitted by knoxvegas99 on Sat, 2009/04/11 - 3:22pm

Well, I did, and I'm flabbergasted, Becki and I live in a very modest 3BR home just outside the town of Farragut's boundary. Four years ago our home appraised for $123,100, which may have been slightly under market value, but not by much. The only improvements to the home since then have been to screen and roof a deck at the rear of the house.

This morning's mail brought a message from Property Assessor Phil Ballard that our home was now valued at $163,300! That's nearly 33% "appreciation" since the last appraisal. Undoubtedly values have risen in four years, but certainly not by 1/3, especially in this depressed real estate market. WTF? Anyone else out there feeling hosed? Does Ballard, whose background is insurance, even have any certified appraisers left after firing John Whitehead?

The appeal process starts Monday, April 13.

Larry Van Guilder

104
vote
ANGRYWOLF's picture

It shouldn't be a surprise...

I think a lot of homeowners are going to be shocked.
It's just a way for county to make more money.
It's an unofficial property tax increase.Rather than have an official one you just reappraise peoples' homes at a higher rate.
Sure some people will win their appeals but a lot won't and so the county will come out gaining in the end.
Maybe you will be one of those who wins.Good luck.

Rachel's picture

It's just a way for county

It's just a way for county to make more money.
It's an unofficial property tax increase.Rather than have an official one you just reappraise peoples' homes at a higher rate.

You don't understand how property taxes work. They have to be revenue neutral. So if the total appraised property in Knox County (minus new property in the last 4 years) goes up, the tax rate will go down.

That's state law, I believe, and it's to keep public officials from doing just what you describe.

JCA's picture

That's the way I understand

That's the way I understand it, too. Mine went up as well, of course, but if my house actually sold for even the "new" appraisal I'd be VERY disappointed. Even in the current down market I think it's worth tens of thousands more than what's on county records. I hope the tax folks don't see this!

ANGRYWOLF's picture

Doesn't matter how it is suppose to be...

Cities and counties know how to legally manipulate the system...

That's how it is and that's how it works...

smile....

ANGRYWOLF's picture

Doesn't matter how it is suppose to be...

what matters is how it is...

Cities and counties know how to game the system.....
It's somewhat naive to think otherwise....

Nobody's picture

Under the open records act

Under the open records act you can request for the numbers from the last assessment, you might be surprised that there is a little law that says they must be within 2% not even. Surprisingly you might also find that the last one we had gave a decrease on the assessment on all properties in Turkey Creek-the hottest property in Tn. The county made about 4/5 million even with that decrease.JUSTICE TOO LONG DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED-Emerson

GDrinnen2's picture

Kinda!

"You don't understand how property taxes work. They have to be revenue neutral. So if the total appraised property in Knox County (minus new property in the last 4 years) goes up, the tax rate will go down."

The way I understand it is a game of averages. They will take the average appreciation rate for Knox County, which I think I read as 16%. They will lower the property tax rate based on the average. If as in in Larry's case (sorry Larry), your appraisal goes up by 33%. . . . well then you will in fact see an increase in what you pay in taxes.

Congrats on the newfound "equity", Larry!

Rachel's picture

Sorry, Gary, no.Whether or

Sorry, Gary, no.

Whether or not your personal taxes go up depends on your relationship to the average increase in appraised value (as you describe). Since Knox County's was around 16%, if your appraisal goes up more than that 16%, you'll pay more taxes.

The tax RATE (which is currently $2.69 per $100 of assessed value) is set as I described above - i.e., it keeps total property tax collections for property taxed 4 years ago at the same $$$ amount. Since I'm guessing that that total # is higher than 4 years ago, the tax RATE will probably come down.

Bbeanster's picture

Definitions aside, bottom

Definitions aside, bottom line for Larry is, Larry will pay more, unless he can do some fancy talking. Pretty arbitrary way of doing business.

scottfrith's picture

Had a customer call me

Had a customer call me today...

We just put his condo on the market for $199,900. His new assessment is $235,000 -- never been another unit in the neighborhood even close to that valuation.

I understand formulas, but this is a terrible way of doing things and politically -- well -- a reckoning is coming.

Bird_dog's picture

market value?

I too thought that property appraisals were supposed to be market value - based on a recent sales price if available. I once bought a rental property that had been on the market for a year. The bank had written off a $40K + loan and was trying to sell for $20K. After being on the market a YEAR for $20K, I bought it and immediately went to contest the appraisal of $35K - based on market value. That held no water with the review board... They said something to the effect of "yeah, but what price would you sell it today??? huh???" I said that I couldn't sell it for any more than the $20K I paid for it - as evidenced by it being on the market for a year at that price! Ellos no lo comprenden... Good luck Larry and Scottfrith...

Bird_dog's picture

that rental property...

is now appraised for $75,500!!! almost 70% more than the $45K fairy tale four years ago. And our home jumped 44%...

Anne933's picture

Yikes

Mine went up 57% with no improvements since the last assessment. My neighbor's went up 47%. There is something wrong here people.

R. Neal's picture

It's supposed to be revenue

It's supposed to be revenue neutral overall with rate adjustments as explained above. But legislative bodies can also take a special vote to increase it if they want. That's what they did in Blount Co. last time.

Anyway, as discussed here previously these appraisals sound crazy to me in this market.

Rachel's picture

It's interesting we're

It's interesting we're seeing all these big #s when the Knox County average increase is supposed to be 16.6%.

Who got small increases? (We don't have our yet, but our house was undervalued before, and property values in our neighborhood, based on sales prices, have soared in the last few years, so I'm expecting a pretty big increase.)

knoxvegas99's picture

Looks like a job for Tabloid

Looks like a job for Tabloid Boy. Ballard can run but he can't hide.

Larry Van Guilder

sugarfatpie's picture

Mine actually went down.

My house in near downtown is down significantly.
But some land I own out in the sticks is way way up.

-Sugarfatpie (AKA Alex Pulsipher)

"X-Rays are a hoax."-Lord Kelvin

GDrinnen2's picture

Rachel, I thought we just

Rachel, I thought we just said the same thing.

No matter how you look at it, Larry will be paying higher taxes.

Rachel's picture

Rachel, I thought we just

Rachel, I thought we just said the same thing.

Maybe we were. If so, I'm sorry I misread you.

Mello's picture

The penny value

There is some long assed convoluted formula to get to the value of a penny on the tax rate then the rate is set.

I can't find the summery for Knox county but you might want to take a look at all the bits and pieces via this Blount County summery http://www.comptroller1.state.tn.us/PAnew/SA.asp?W=08&c=5&t=0&s=0

Joe328's picture

I've tried several times to

I've tried several times to look at parcels owned by our local leaders on the KGIS site. While I have been able to determine the owner the tax information is usually unavailable at the time.

Rachel's picture

The tax info is on the city

The tax info is on the city and county websites.

Joe328's picture

I was using the city and

I was using the city and county tax website. My point was that some parcels (usually owned by the politically connected) seems to always be unavailable. Especially when their property is involved in a hot issue.

Rachel's picture

Hmmm. I've never had that

Hmmm. I've never had that difficulty.

ANGRYWOLF's picture

Oh well...

R. Neal's picture

Are the property tax records

Are the property tax records at the Knox Co. Trustee's website up to date with the new appraisals?

Stick Thrower's picture

Wondering that too

Ours is unchanged. Haven't received a new appraisal though...

Link to the trustee site here if someone wants to check theirs.

R. Neal's picture

Thanks. Just thought to

Thanks. Just thought to check Larry's, and his hadn't changed yet either although he said he has been notified of the new appraisal.

rocketsquirrel's picture

folks should have voted for

folks should have voted for Andrew Graybeal. He wanted to clean up the stink and make sure that certain good ol' boys weren't getting unfairly LOW appraisals while the rest of us took it on the chin.

if you voted for the other guy, you have no one but yourself to blame. Why do Republicans so often vote against their own interests? I've never understood that.

knoxvegas99's picture

Randy, et al They probably

Randy, et al

They probably won't post new numbers until some time after the end of the appeals process. I just spoke with another West Knox County homeowner who lives in a more upscale neighborhood than ours. His appraisal is up 27%, and he seriously doubts that he could sell the home for what it appraised for 4 years ago.

From what I'm hearing, the appeals docket is going to be crowded.

Larry Van Guilder

R. Neal's picture

Update from Knox Co. Trustee

Update from Knox Co. Trustee Fred Sisk

http://www.knoxviews.com/node/11005

Nobody's picture

Mine is down $1300...

... in South Knoxville.

smalc's picture

So is it possible they

So is it possible they raised assessments in parts of the county they thought more affluent (or more likely to pay their taxes)? Cut down on the number of unpaid/late taxes?

Or is that a stretch of a conspiracy theory?

Rachel's picture

I read something in the KNS

I read something in the KNS that assessments went up more in west knox county, which makes sense, I guess.

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz's picture

Show your support for

Show your support for Obama's economic recovery plan Submitted by R. Neal on Mon, 2009/04/13 - 11:31am. Submitted by Rachel on Mon, 2009/04/13 - 11:25pm. I don't really get what the tea baggers are so mad about. Deficits? Like I said, where were they the last 8 years? Taxes? Middle class taxes just went down.

Got your new appraisal, Knox County? WTF? Anyone else out there feeling hosed? Submitted by knoxvegas99 on Sat, 2009/04/11 - 3:22pm.

Two words come to mind, “Irony and Hypocrite”.

gonzone's picture

Someone has to say this

Hypocrite is exactly correct.

Truly concerned about your taxes going up?

Worried about mortgaging your children's future?

Then blame those darn tax and spend and borrow Republicans.

Spend on jobs and infrastructure? No Way!

Spend on 4 more wars in rat holes where our money is totally wasted by GOP contractors? Let's Go!

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz's picture

YOU ARE TOTALLY CLUELESS!

YOU ARE TOTALLY CLUELESS!

gonzone's picture

yeah

About things like where my caps lock key is located and how creating jobs with stimulus money is socialism while blowing it on defense contractors creates "good jobs" for people. And things like "government never created one job" but "don't take our defense pork away" causes massive job losses and cannot be done.
Yeah, totally clueless. And don't forget hypocritical. Uh huh.

Who raised these taxes? The crafty Dems in Ktown?

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."

Bobfar's picture

So typical, I understand

So typical, I understand that the revenue needs to stay net neutral, I hope the News Sentinel can investigate this so if I have to pay $200 more I want to know who paid $200 less or the 20 people that paid $10 less. I do not believe for an instance that the revenue stays neutral.

The website is not correct in order to see any increase/decrease.

Interesting the rate could be $2.34 still would be a tax increase. Smoke and mirrors.

Come on New Sentinel, flush this story like you did to the Commisoners and the Sunshine Law.

HALLS GUY's picture

Appraisal up 77k & 32%

I live in Halls and with houses all around me for sale and no bites from buyers then I get this appraisal for 77k more than four years ago and up 32% about double the 16% average. I'm really scratching my head. Checked Zillow to see if my range had somehow miraculiosly changed.... nada. How surreal is this absolutely stupid or what?. Is North Knox Co. immune from the rest of the nation with prices actually tumbling 20% or more. Perhaps this Property assessor lives in a bubble real world doesn't apply. Expect a tax increase within a couple of years this how the game is played. Aurthorized theft to the common man.

bizgrrl's picture

I believe counties do

I believe counties do reappraisals every five years or so. It does seem like pretty poor timing for Knox County. We all probably want our homes to increase in value, but geez, a government appraisal increase of 77k when there is probably no way the home could be sold for that in the next twelve months is a little crazy.

metulj's picture

Please stop abusing yourself

Please stop abusing yourself with Zillow. It's a total joke.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

Up Goose Creek's picture

Mortgage fraud

I am wondering if the tax assesor is looking at false sales prices that were set up to perpetrate mortgage fraud. A lot of that has happened - you look up the records and think "there's no way someone paid THAT for that house" Then, of course, the next owner is a bank.

____________________________________
"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." --Ralph Nader

JudgeMathis's picture

I received my reassessment

I received my reassessment on my VERY modest home in South Knoxville, it's nothing like those elitist's houses in Island Home Park, yet my assessment increased by 275%. Yep, from $65,000 to $177,000. They really are trying to have my kind carry all the gubmint workers on my back. Another property I own was increased by 67%--and it doesn't even have any siding or windows. Someone's grudge is showing.

Rachel's picture

elitist's houses in Island

comment deleted because, as predicted, I thought better of it.

JudgeMathis's picture

It was a joke. I haven't

It was a joke. I haven't really met any elitists out of you Island Homers. Some nice people live there, though I have met a couple that are smarmy. Ms Craig, I just found this site yesterday. Nice to see you again.

Up Goose Creek's picture

Grudge

Boy that is a grudge, or quite possibly a typo where someone added an extra 1. There aren't too many homes in South Knoxville city outside IHP that are likely to sell for that price and none of them could be described as modest.

What was the old value on the 2nd house?

____________________________________
"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." --Ralph Nader

bizgrrl's picture

There are several areas in

There are several areas in SoKno City with homes of the value $175,000 and greater (or closing in on), Lindbergh Forest, Colonial Village, Lake Forest, and some in-fill condos/garden homes off Woodlawn near the Middle School and cemetery.

JudgeMathis's picture

My property is a 1780 sq ft

My property is a 1780 sq ft frame, vinyl sided place on South Haven Rd. There is only one property that could be valued at that amount on that road, and that's because it has two houses and a pool on over an acre. My house isn't Scottish--it's crap.

The second property that was bumped about 67% went from 40K to 64K. My mistake--60%. It's literally covered in OSB with no windows, (failing gutters where there are gutters), aged roof, and no paved drive. So why didn't I get a 16% bump like was stated? A 20% wouldn't even have hurt too much. 275% and 60% are not the norm. But we do have the audacity to want to retain our property--I'm sorry to inform some of the Island Homers.
The good news is that the cancer in our family over the past couple of yrs has not recurred, so maybe we can make good on one of those values.

R. Neal's picture

It's literally covered in

It's literally covered in OSB with no windows, (failing gutters where there are gutters), aged roof, and no paved drive.

You sound like a fine property owner/landlord for the the communities in which you operate or whatever it is you do.

Up Goose Creek's picture

True

There are some in that price range, for sure. But none that I would call modest. OK some folks might consider the condos modest but they are very solidly built, all brick, nice landscaping etc.

Metulj, I was speaking of the KGIS which comes from what the buyer says the property is worth on the deed. Most of the time the number is filled in by the closing agent and thus is accurate. To the best of their knowlege, of course. In the case of mortgage fraud the price would be inflated.

____________________________________
"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." --Ralph Nader

metulj's picture

I wouldn't worry about mass

I wouldn't worry about mass mortgage fraud by individual home owners (the banks don't need the public's help), but KGIS is only accurate for properties that have sold, right? How do you assess for tax purposes based on sales alone? Only apply increased taxes on houses that have sold? That's a recipe for disaster. Come up with a formula based on average sales? There would be shrieks about this too.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

JudgeMathis's picture

My current home has a

My current home has a recorded price in KGIS that is significantly higher than the price we paid. Since it was recorded with an included gift amount from my aunt and father, (my grandparent's home until they passed) the higher amount was recorded since that's what the contract said, dollar-wise.
I wish I could get my value increases more like the 16% increase suggested.

What do you think the likelihood of having my 275% increase corrected with a phone call would be? I mean the THEY can't expect me to take time off from work to correct their mistake can they?

bizgrrl's picture

Estate issues aside, we got

Estate issues aside, we got our county appraisal lowered in Blount County. It was fairly easy, but we did have to go in person.

R. Neal's picture

My current home has a

My current home has a recorded price in KGIS that is significantly higher than the price we paid. Since it was recorded with an included gift amount from my aunt and father, (my grandparent's home until they passed) the higher amount was recorded since that's what the contract said, dollar-wise.

I wish I could get my value increases more like the 16% increase suggested.

What do you think the likelihood of having my 275% increase corrected with a phone call would be? I mean the THEY can't expect me to take time off from work to correct their mistake can they?

Not sure where to begin.

What is an "included gift amount?"

You mean, that's what you actually paid? Or the price you paid with a little help? Did you report the "gift" on your income taxes? Did you tell the mortgage company? I was under the impression that "gifts" and loans from relatives and such weren't supposed to figure in to the qualifying calculations for a loan.

I was also curious what improvements you have made to the house that went up more than 275% or whatever it is you claimed (which I have a hard time believing).

A while back we bought an empty lot and built on it. The previous assessment was a small fraction of the new assessment once they considered the new house that was built on the empty lot. The new assessment after building a house on the empty lot was an order of magnitude more than the previous assessment of the empty lot.

Should we complain?

As for taking off from work to deal with it, well, yeah. Or you could just pay the increased property taxes for the next twenty years or whatever.

JudgeMathis's picture

You're confusing the facts.

You're confusing the facts. I made no changes to the 275% increased property in the last AT LEAST 6-7 yrs--and was not gifted anything for that property. It has no gutters at all and no paved driveway. I bought that house from Ben Lutz and Johnson Bible College. There is no explanation for that increase--other than a mistake or a grudge. Considering that I received a 60% increase on another property for tearing off the brick facade, wood siding and removing the windows to cover it completely in OSB, I'm not sure which one to believe.

The gifted amount has nothing to do with these two houses. It would be stupid to expect me to take off from work if they inadvertently added a one to the increase. The other house that was increased 60%, I really don't intend to contest. It's value will be there if and when I finish it.

Up Goose Creek's picture

Paperwork

Aha, that could explain the huge tax hike. I guess you need to take the paperwork that showed what part is a gift and what is purchase. In your case it could be worth it to pay for an appraisal. I guess it was partly your family's "mistake" in setting up the estate that way. The law of unintended consequences etc.

My guess is the assesment is based on a formula that combines what you paid for the house and what neighboring houses sell for. It's probably based on distance so even the "work in progress" will be affected by sales in IHP. Yours is the kind of situation the appeals are meant for. Sorry you have to go through the hassle.

____________________________________
"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." --Ralph Nader

metulj's picture

Also, you may not want to

Also, you may not want to kick over a hornet's nest with scrutiny toward that gift because you might be much happier with the property tax rate than facing federal tax and penalties if that gift was over a certain amount ($12-13000?) or pushed that relative over the $1000000 lifetime exemption. It's tricky.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

JudgeMathis's picture

Nope, wrong house. No gift

Nope, wrong house. No gift on this property--no loans recorded since it was financed by the owner beginning in late 1997 and paid off in 2002. No improvements since about that time either. We received an increase in 2004 from $29,000 to $65,000.
As stated in the other post on my present home, the gifted amount is reflected in the sale price--which we didn't pay. The price was inflated to allow us less down payment so as to avoid PMI. It was just an illustration to affirm that inflated values of homes do exist as someone else stated.

Up Goose Creek's picture

Estate

Well it is an estate, but it sounds like you need better advice than you'd get from random bloggers.

____________________________________
"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." --Ralph Nader

metulj's picture

Yeah, better talk to

Yeah, better talk to somebody as that could get sticky.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Seppuku is in a way the ultimate awful libertarian act -- Frank Popper

JudgeMathis's picture

Affirmative. I can't edit a

Affirmative.

I can't edit a previous post, But I thought I'd add that the current amount a person can gift another in one year is limited to $13,000 without reporting income that will be taxed for the recipient. You can give as many people as you want the amount of $13,000 each without them having to report any income on that money.

jen's picture

Another South Knoxville Amazing Equity Story

I bought my house on in South Knox in August. It looks kinda like a tar paper shack - leaky roof, rot, missing gutters, missing soffits,in extreme need of paint. I paid less than the last appraisal and I'm not 100% it was worth that with all the damage...
So get this... I paid 42K in August 2008. The 2004 value when it still had siding was 47K.

Apparently a miracle happened because I got a letter that it is now worth $70,600!

WOW! Do they want to buy it?????? I'll sell it tomorrow! Ha! I'll se y'all in the appeals line. >:(

Up Goose Creek's picture

Urban legend

I'm happy to report that the tax spike that was predicted to encourage us to leave our side of the waterfront failed to materialize. I think it helps that so many of us are very long term homeowners. (Mrs V lives in a house that has been in her family since 1928.) Also a lot of houses are passed along to kids and grandkids and renters and friends at reduced rates.

Before you sharpen your pitchforks I might mention I'll be paying a 70% increase for a house in 4th & Gill. So I do feel your pain.

Jen, do you live near JudgeMathis?

____________________________________
"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." --Ralph Nader

Up Goose Creek's picture

Reappraisal

I recieved the reassesments on the lots I bought at tax sale and I'm pleased to announce that they went down to what I'd paid for the lots. Which wasn't all that much. Definitely worth the 2 short bike rides & 15 minutes of discussion. My argument was I wouldn't have clear title for another 12 years so they weren't worth that much right now. Obviously I think they'll be worth something sometime or I wouldn't have bought them.

Unfortunately if the slope law gets passed one of them (1/3 acre) might be worth nothing, although I could easily tuck a small house into the contours and save 80% of the trees. Sigh. Lets hope there's an allowance for infill housing.

__________________________________
There MUST be a pony in here somewhere!

abear's picture

appeal success?

My assessment got lost in the mail and only just arrived. I've been handed a levy increase of 43%. Those of you who have already dealt with this, do you have any suggestions about effective ways to approach making an appeal? Anyone with tips for success?

Up Goose Creek's picture

Too late?

Doesn't sound too promising. Let us know if you still get a chance to appeal.

_________________________
more construction, less politics

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.

More information about formatting options

CAPTCHA
This question is used to make sure you are a human visitor and to prevent spam submissions.
Fill in the blank

Shortcuts



User login

Citizen Blog-O-Rama

Local Media Blogs

Local Paper

Film at 11

Wire Reports

Search KnoxViews



TN Progressive All-Stars

Nearby:

Beyond:

At large:

Government:

Media: