Wed
Jan 25 2006
01:23 pm

Over at KnoxBlab some people are poking fun at the Take Back Our Government Rally.

One poster wrote, "I heard that the anti wheel tax people are having a rally tomorrow night at the Expo Center on Clinton Highway to take back the government. Anyone know who they are taking it from and what do they want to do with it assuming they get it."

Another poster wrote, "I don't know who they want to take it from, but they want to give it to Steve Hall, Gary Sellers, Lumpy Lambert and #9. Apparently their platform espouses bringing the Dark Ages back to Knox County."

Sounds Medieval doesn't it?

This is interesting. There appear to be nervous people since the "cats sleeping with dogs" phenomenon that occurred during the Candy Factory fight when conservatives and progressives joined together for a common cause. Now there is a war among the various progressives. Is it a political sin to mix with other groups? Consider how the Haslam administration and various people on KnoxBlab and k2k have maligned the Green Party.

There will be featured speakers at the rally. One of these speakers will be Michael Kaplan of the Green Party. He will be speaking about the Candy Factory and eminent domain.

If the City and County had acted after the Kelo decision would this strange convergence of different political groups have occurred? One thing is certain; the people of Knox County are serious about property rights.

The rally will be held Thursday the 26th from 5:30 PM to 8:00 PM at the Knoxville Expo Center . Michael Silence has said he will try to attend. My guess is many curious people will attend also.

S Carpenter's picture

Please tell us the what,

Please tell us the what, where, who, why is the TAKE BACK OUR GOVERNMENT RALLY?

Your post is otherwise incomprehensible.

Thanks

Ferenc Fricsay's picture

Your post is otherwise

Your post is otherwise incomprehensible.

Welcome to the cross-posting world of that Crazy Freeper: #9.

Ferenc Fricsay's picture

Oh, by the way. Since posts

Oh, by the way. Since posts on Knoxblab are the property of the poster, I expressly forbid you to cross post any post I make without proper attribution.

Number9's picture

If you write something that

If you write something that has merit and I reference it I will attribute it as you request. So far I do not think this will be an issue.

Bbeanster's picture

So, #9, what did you do to

So, #9, what did you do to this bunch that makes them slobberous with rage at the very mention of your name, errr, number?

I checked out the Blab thread, and they sure don't like you much. They also generally seem to think the wheel tax is A-OK (nevermind the fact that it's the most regressive damn tax there is, including the tax on food, which the foodstamp-eligible poor don't have to pay). Somebody even seems to think it's going to pay down the convention center debt and treat their sewage.
But that's OK -- long as you drink (often, and to excess) at the right places, have a cool avatar, a hip and incomprehensible signature line and a deep sense of superiority.

rikki's picture

One of the things it's done

One of the things it's done is fail to attribute something I wrote as I requested. He also dodges any question he can not answer and often continues to make the very claim that was questioned. He has proven himself a hypocrite on numerous fronts and generally makes accusatory claims he can not defend. He could really use someone with a brain to help him out. If you really want to champion him, it would certainly make life more interesting!

Bbeanster's picture

As an ex- (and very

As an ex- (and very occasional) reader of Knoxblab, I'll plead ignorance. Damned if I know (or care) who's a troll and who isn't, although I'll admit it's pretty funny to see guys named Metulj and Cuddles and whatnot who live Up North Somewhere beating up on #9 for being anonymous and living outside Knox County.

Kind of reminds me of when Bubba was run off k2k by some of the same people.

My bottom line is this: For anyone who isn't in the clique, Knoxblab is a very unpleasant, inbred place to visit -- which is why I don't go there. It's your place and you're welcome to it. But I hate like hell to see that culture transplanted here.

Rachel's picture

Ummm, I agree that sometimes

Ummm, I agree that sometimes the Knoxblab regulars (me included) can me hard on folks.

But honestly, Beanster, #9 has earned every snarky remark that came its way - and many times over. Rikki pretty much summed up his modus operandi. Not to mention that you can't call people sock puppets, pod people, and Barbara Pelot too many times and still win friends and influence people.

I hope the discussion here will go better. So far it seems to be doing so.

Bbeanster's picture

Not to mention that you

Not to mention that you can't call people sock puppets, pod people, and Barbara Pelot too many times and still win friends and influence people.
...........

Then perhaps you can understand why the casual reader might be offended to see y'all piling on. And speaking of not making friends, is it worse to be called asswipe and fucktard or sock puppet and Barbara Pelot? (It wasn't #9 using the foul language, btw.)
I've never been a big Pelot supporter, but....
I don't have the inclination to go through the archives looking for the genesis of all this. I'm just saying the 'blabbers' can expect some pushback if they transplant their grudge matches over here.
(barbara pelot -- heh-heh. Now THAT is funny. I kinda like ole' #9)

Rachel's picture

(barbara pelot -- heh-heh.

(barbara pelot -- heh-heh. Now THAT is funny. I kinda like ole' #9)

The problem is that #9 doesn't mean it to be funny.

However, I thought it was funny for somebody to call me BP. So after he called me that I replaced my avatar for awhile with a pic of Barbara.

Unfortunately, #9 totally missed the humor in that.

Look, this is the wrong place to rehash the #9 thing, so I'm shutting up now. Just know that much of the bad feeling toward it is of its own making.

Bbeanster's picture

The insularity of Knoxville

The insularity of Knoxville is fascinating and your mentioning of people no longer in town who post there only serves to reify your claim. If there is one cultural trend you can ascribe to Knoxville it is this: "If you weren't born there, you ain't from there. And when you leave, you ain't from there even if you were born there." I lived most of my life in Knoxville (I am not native) and I never felt truly welcome in many situations. Man, get up and say something with a non-Knoxville diction and hear the feet shuffle and the throats clear. Maybe it's some Appalachian thing....

Maybe you're right, in this respect: Part of hillbilly culture (at least in MY neighborhood) was to dislike bullies. And seeing a bunch of anonymous guys who don't live here trashing someone for being anonymous and not living here just smelled like bullying. Some of my best friends -- including my Mamma -- ain't FROM here. My kids left long ago, so by your definition, they're not FROM here, either, and I like them pretty well -- your low opinion of "Appalachian things" notwithstanding.

Bbeanster's picture

I'll say it again: I have no

I'll say it again:
I have no more idea who you are than I do of who #9 is (or "IT" as your group chooses to call him).
One of the things I just don't get is this: Why is it weird that he cares about the Candy Factory, and why do you care why he cares?
When you say "My identity is well-known on the Blab so your anonnymity (sic) tack is headed toward the shore," you are giving me -- or yourself -- more credit than I/you/we deserve. I'm probably typical of the occasional, non-insider 'blab lurker; maybe a little better informed, due to my age and occupation, but I haven't a clue as to your identity.
You're not anonymous if your buds know who you are?
Whatever. Maybe it should be a private club instead of a public messageboard.
From my vantage point, you're just a guy who lives somewhere else posting under a pseudonym picking on another guy who allegedly lives somewhere else and posts under a pseudonym. And you are one of several, which makes you a bully.
If you were a guy who lives somewhere else posting under a pseudonym who wasn't picking on someone for doing the same thing, I'd have no beef. And if you were not part of a pack, I wouldn't consider you a bully.
Please note, I have never intruded on your fun over yonder --just when you dragged it over here.
In closing, any questions I posed in this post are strictly rhetorical. I'm done conversing with you about this.

SayUncle's picture

For anyone who isn't in the

For anyone who isn't in the clique, Knoxblab is a very unpleasant, inbred place to visit -- which is why I don't go there. It's your place and you're welcome to it. But I hate like hell to see that culture transplanted here.

Word. I'm an ex-reader/commenter there for the same reason. I think that trolling is being transplanted here, sadly. And #9 posts at my site too. I have no idea who he is but his IP originates in Knoxville.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

jfm's picture

uncle! when did anyone ever

uncle! when did anyone ever troll you on the blab? my recollection of your blab interactions is you would come on, make some silly right-wing argument about something or other, and then not be able to take the inevitable arguments that came back your way and eventually disappear in a puff of smoke. remember when you tried to explain how a "republic" is something totally different than a "democracy"? good times, good times.

Number9's picture

uncle! when did anyone ever

uncle! when did anyone ever troll you on the blab? my recollection of your blab interactions is you would come on, make some silly right-wing argument about something or other, and then not be able to take the inevitable arguments that came back your way and eventually disappear in a puff of smoke. remember when you tried to explain how a "republic" is something totally different than a "democracy"? good times, good times.

jfm, rikki, metulj, gemini et al,

Please read what you wrote above. Another person writes something "you" consider "silly" and then "you" say they are not able to take the "inevitable arguments that came back your way" and they "eventually disappear in a puff of smoke".

Please see your Doctor and ask them what they can do for your "superiority complex". It is very difficult to converse with people as stuck up as you all are.

There is a definitive small clique on KnoxBlab and k2k that dates back to the beginning of MetroBlab. Your seniority means nothing. You have no tenure. You are no different than any other person that writes in one of these forums.

The reason it is so difficult to converse with you is that you are very stuck up and you refuse to consider the other side. I wouldn't say you are trolls; you just feel you are superior in any argument. You had a little taste of humility today. I hope it has a long half-life, as I do want to debate you people. But if all you can to is throw insults then it will be a difficult task. I have a tendency to ignore people with those annoying habits.

SayUncle's picture

Actually, I would assert

Actually, I would assert A.  You then would, through your magical jesse powers, conclude if I thought A that I must be think B then assert that I either 1) said B or 2) meant B.  Then I'd spend the rest of the debate telling you that's not what I said.  Or you would merely take an assertion that I made and extend it out to an extreme.  I again would correct you, lather, rinse, repeat.  Then, the other little trolls would chime in with how stoopid i was or some shit. 

For example, in this case, I was not including you as one of those trolls.  Yet, you seem to assume I have.  I enjoyed some discussions over there but the trolls made it not worth it.  And, odd as it seems, you guys accuse #9 of trolling and bash him for it.  Yet never one time did any of you tell the trolls who were just hurling insults my way to knock it off.  Well, except fluffy.

And a republic is still different than a democracy.

--- SayUncle Can't we all just get a long gun?

jfm's picture

no i didn't think you meant

no i didn't think you meant me, i just don't remember you being troll-beset. i remember you disappearing rather than acknowledge the logical inconsistencies that had been pointed up in your muddled "libertarian" views. (i think that's what you mean by your "if A then B" comment. sometimes if you believe one thing, it really does have implications for other things.)

and i don't think #9 is a troll, i just think he's tiresome.

katie allison granju's picture

Beanster -- I've been

Beanster -- I've been participating in various online communities regularly since about 1996. I've written about them quite a bit, too. In my experience, KnoxBlab is one of the friendliest, funniest, most welcoming groups I've been involved with.

I'll give you that it tends to skew toward a certain, specific kind of sardonic, non sequitur-laced humor (which I happen to love), and the pop culture references can be a bit obscure. It's also very arts-focused (lots of musicians and music lovers there). But the humor isn't mean and the folks there are actually super-nice. Check out all the kind words and offers of help I got in the past few weeks after my house was burglarized. These are really Good People. I'm sorry if you had a bad experience. Give us another chance.

:-) Katie

Bbeanster's picture

Katie, it's not that I had a

Katie, it's not that I had a bad experience with the blab. It's just that I checked it out and it's not for me. But that's OK, and it doesn't mean I think you are a bad person for liking it there. I've got other places to hang out -- like this one, which I like just fine, so I'm going to continue to resist those who would transplant the blab culture here (unless Bubba objects).
And different strokes for different folks -- and so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee

skirob's picture

What IS the blab culture

What IS the blab culture that you are referring to? I think that is what many people don't get. I have benn a participant or even moderator of numerous other boards over then years and this one has to be the friendliest group online folks that I have ever seen. Weren't you on the previous bubbablab? These are the same folks that you interacted with there and I think your comments about "inbreds" kind of surprised some people who know you and/or have been regular readers of your column for some time (such as myself). What changed so that you now choose not to associate with the nefarious blabbers? I don't care who does or does not choose to participate at knoxblab, but I am sincerely curious as to what brought on such vitriol towards the community. I would prefer that everyone would feel welcome so consider this "picking your brain" to find out what inspired your comments.

As for blabbers co-mingling with the knoxviews crowd, well, I was a religious reader of SKB and I am absolutely thrilled to see that Mr. Neal is back to blogging. Count me in on the civil discourse.

While I'm at it let me extend an invite to The Funhouse Presents The Rockwells and Jetpack at Barleys this Friday. Feel free to come by and say "hey".

Bbeanster's picture

Oh, Lord. One more

Oh, Lord. One more time:

Here is the essence of your question to me, I think:
--What IS the blab culture that you are referring to?--

Look at the first three posts in this thread. That is the Blab culture to which I refer. It looked like the hounds and hare game that turned me off to the Blab, and I will not be run out of this place. The second poster even mentioned the Blab, btw.

Then I read the thread #9 linked. I didn't like it. It managed to be simultaneously condescending and dumb -- a combination not designed to win converts.

I accept that the Blabbers don't like #9, find him uncool and generally annoying. But I do not believe they have the right to drag their vendetta over here, where #9 hasn't behaved offensively. I don't know him (I really hate that "It" routine your posters choose to employ), and who knows -- he may piss me off, too. But I, for one, don't want to have to endure a continuation of that crap, which is why I do not even lurk there anymore. As a matter of fact, the same dynamic prompted me to abandon k2k. (And probably a lot of other people, judging by the dwindling number of posts there these days.)

You sound like a genuinely nice guy, and you are doing a service for the folks who choose to avail themselves of your site. I will plead guilty to overstating my case and saying some intemperate things last night. I am -- here's a news flash -- something of a curmudgeon and a loner who doesn't work and play well with groups. But I figure people who dish it out should also be able to take it -- and that, of course, applies to me -- so I certainly expect to be roasted for taking a whole group on. That's the way it works, and I've got a thick hide.

There are blab people I like. But I find little to like in those threads like the one referenced here, and less to like in the bullying of #9. I cannot imagine how that stuff can be construed as the actions of a friendly, welcoming bunch.

jfm's picture

i agree with you on not

i agree with you on not finding much to like in the #9 threads. that's why i mostly avoid them. but the common denominator in the #9 threads is...#9. he has a spectacularly obtuse way of arguing that is designed mostly to irritate. and true, once you figure that out, it's your own fault if you hang around to let yourself be irritated by him. but since he's among the blab's more prolific posters, it's hard not to stumble across him from time to time. what maybe looks like hounds and hare to you feels more like picnickers and mosquitoes to us. i don't think there's anything particularly cliquish or bullying about swatting mosquitoes. #9 complains about the treatment he gets on the blab, and acts like he's being vilified for his views or something, which is ridiculous. there are a lot of people on the blab who are a lot more "anti-establishment" or whatever he fancies himself than he is. there are plenty of people on the blab who manage to have (sometimes heated) arguments about music, politics, whatever, and still stay friendly through it. with #9, it's not his politics, it's his personality. but i'll leave that to you to gauge for yourself.

Number9's picture

Bbeanster, that link was too

Bbeanster, that link was too snarky, I admit that. But sometimes you have to poke fun at yourself. I don't see many converts from KnoxBlab. That is a very pro eminent domain crowd. Why, I have no idea. The idea is repugnant to me.

At the rally tonight, with the exception of Bill Lyons, I did not see anyone from KnoxBlab or the powers that be. Well, Dwight Van de Vate was there but I don't think he even knows about KnoxBlab.

I thought the rally tonight was very powerful. I don't know how many people were there but the speaker that spoke about Mark Saroff's property and his eminent domain battles with the City was one of the best speakers I have ever heard. Anyone that heard Randy Sadler speak about how eminent domain for private purposes is morally wrong would be moved.

Like many people I listened to Mark Saroff explain how the City has tried to defraud him and take his property. I felt ashamed that this could happen where I live. I don't take what is happening lightly. I may poke fun at myself from time to time but do not mistake my sincerity. I saw a group of people that can form a political force in this County. I saw passionate determined people and from the expression on Bill Lyons face he saw it also.

As a informal mentor of mine used to say, it's on. This makes the Candy Factory caper look like a shoplifting incident.

Bbeanster, you summed it up here a few weeks ago:

(link...)

Rachel's picture

I saw passionate determined

I saw passionate determined people

So just what are these passionate people determined to do? Other than fight eminent domain whenever they see it, and repeal the wheel tax? Is there more to the platform?

I'm not trying to be snarky here; I'm just interested in what these folks want to accomplish.

jfm's picture

hey betty -- just one more

hey betty --

just one more guy-who-doesn't-live-there checking in. the real bottom line on #9 at the blab is just that he's kind of annoying and obsessive. he's like one of those guys who shows up at every council or commission meeting, says the same things over and over and always runs over his allotted time. the kind of guy who even if you agree with some of his points -- or maybe especially if you agree with some of his points -- you still roll your eyes and groan every time he gets up. except that instead of having to listen to him for 5 minutes every few weeks, he's there every single day. that's all. some people get some enjoyment out of baiting or debating him. i mostly ignore him, although he occasionally says something so silly that it's hard not to respond.

as for cliqueishness, i don't know. the current blab is about the friendliest cybergroup i've encountered -- it's a lot nicer than the old metroblab -- but any group of friends (virtual or otherwise) always looks like a clique from a distance. a lot of people do know each other, but a lot don't except via the blab. i mean, it's mostly people bullshitting about music, politics, their daily lives...it's not any big thing. the avatars and signature lines and whatever aren't supposed to be hip, as far as i know (if so nobody told me), they're just little bits of whimsy.

and yeah, there's a bunch of us non-knoxvillians on there, it's a way to keep in touch with friends and the city to some degree (without having to get into the level of local political detail of someplace like k2k, because, you're right, not actually living there makes it harder to get too exercised about something like the candy factory; i'm sure if i was there i'd have an opinion on it, but i'm kind of glad not to feel obligated to). anyway, the things been shutdown twice and always reconstituted, so obviously there are enough people who enjoy it to keep it going. unlike k2k (or this current forum, for which r.neal deserves a tip of the hat) the blab has never claimed to be for or about much of anything. it doesn't really serve any purpose except a little place for some people who mostly like each other to gab, procrastinate, hang out. for those of us with limited opportunities for real-world socializing, it also fills a little of that stir-crazy need for adult conversation. (i'm only able to type this right now because the tike is distracted by his favorite tv show.)

anyway, i'm glad you're still down there giving hell to people who need to be given hell to. i'm just not sure knoxblab qualifies.
:)

Bbeanster's picture

Jesse, the biggest "problem"

Jesse, the biggest "problem" I have with the blab is I don't to be part of it. Therefore, I don't want to see blabberers turn this place into the blab. I think it's cool -- sweet, even (and I'm not being snarky when I say that) that you want to keep track of old friends, and I think your interest in a place where you invested a big hunk of your life speaks well of you. I apologize if I gave you the impression that I am criticizing ANYONE for being interested in any issue.
But I don't think any fair reading of my words leads to that conclusion, and please notice, that I have never come flaming onto the blab to impose my opinion on those who post there, or to tell you guys what I think of the place (political threads were the only ones I ever read, pretty much, so I have no comment on the music or beer or any of those other threads.) It just doesn't matter whether I like it or not -- there are plenty of other places I can go.
I've said over and over what my blab problem is. For you guys who like it there, good on you. I don't, so I stay away. I do, however, like what Bubba's done here, and here I will stand my ground. It's a big old cyberworld, and every place doesn't have to be the same.
Hope things are going well for you and the fam.

edens's picture

>a lot of people do know

>a lot of people do know each other, but a lot don't except via the >blab.

And a fair number don't even realize they know one another. Hell, I only figured out who "Smootz" was yesterday.

Number9's picture

So, #9, what did you do to

So, #9, what did you do to this bunch that makes them slobberous with rage at the very mention of your name, errr, number?

Bbeanster,

I will have a new post that will answer that question. The short answer is I stood up to a small clique of people and they decided to run me off. The more they pushed the firmer I dug in. Now it is a contest. I don't expect my image to change with either my detractors or my supporters.

Leslie Wylie of the MetroPulse ask me six questions via email. I will post those questions and my replies in a post "Who is #9 and why do people care?"

Rachel's picture

The short answer is I stood

The short answer is I stood up to a small clique of people and they decided to run me off.

I'm breaking my promise to leave this alone - somebody just shoot me. But really, this is the entire problem with trying to converse with #9.

Yes, #9, you found us out. The "small clique" got together at the Brew Pub and decided to "run you off." Sigh.

What really happened is that you posted some illogical stuff, not backed by facts. When I do that, and somebody calls me on it, I correct my errors. So do most folks.

You, OTOH, either change the subject, continue asserting what has shown to be false, or in the worst case, accept somebody's argument but then post it elsewhere as your original idea. Then when people call you on that, you call them names and look for conspiracies.

If you want credibility online, especially as an anonymous poster, you gotta earn it.

Number9's picture

The "what" is that the group

The "what" is that the group of people that started the protest which led to the "Wheel Tax" referendum wanted to have a reunion. After the vote on the Candy Factory they decided to expand this idea and turn it into a rally to discuss various issues they felt were not being addressed by local government with eminent domain being the most important issue.

The "where" is the Knoxville Expo Center. Knoxville Expo Center is located at the corner of Clinton Hwy and Merchants Rd. Directions here.

The "who" is the original Wheel Tax protest group and elected representatives along with other guest speakers such as Michael Kaplan former UT Professor of Architecture and possibly Mark Saroff the owner of the McClung Warehouses.

The "why" is the common perception that local government has not addressed its responsibility following the Kelo ruling to define how property rights in Knox County will be protected.

I am not a member of any of these groups so other people that know more about the agenda are welcome to join in and explain more.

Number9's picture

This weeks MetroPulse offers

This weeks MetroPulse offers more information on the "insurgent rally" Thursday night. It can't be long before someone calls them "Johnny Reb".

Now that I know they are insurgents I have to go. Will there be Confederate Flags? I lost the one I got as a child from Rebel Railroad.

What happens if they are not insurgents? What happens if it is a group of thoughtful people that are determined to have meaningful eminent domain reform to protect the people of Knox County from the Kelo ruling?

What happens then?

From the MetroPulse:

The Knox County insurgents will rally tonight (Thursday, Jan.26) at the Expo Center on Clinton Highway. The rally, billed as “Taking Knox County Back…one vote at a time,” is also a kickoff for anti-wheel tax leaders running for County Commission seats.

Some of the speakers will include: Gary Sellers, who organized the petition drive that got the wheel tax to referendum, who is running against Commissioner John Mills; Greg “Lumpy” Lambert, another organizer who is running for an open seat from Powell; and Mike Alford, who is running against Commissioner John Schmid. The three current County Commissioners who voted against the wheel tax, Mark Cawood, Paul Pinkston and Mike McMillan, are also scheduled.

Other invited guests include Crowne Plaza hotel manager Ken Knight, who lost a City Council race to Barbara Pelot, and Mark Saroff, owner of the McClung warehouses who has accused the city of not helping him to develop the downtown building, which are under threat of eminent domain proceedings by KCDC because of their blighted condition. The event is from 5:30 p.m. to 8 p.m.

Rachel's picture

One of these speakers will

One of these speakers will be Michael Kaplan of the Green Party. He will be speaking about the Candy Factory and eminent domain.

I keep asking this - and the fact that I have to keep asking it is making me nuts - what does the Candy Factory have to do with eminent domain?

Answer: Nothing. Nada.

Eminent domain is when the government takes private property. The Candy Factory was a case of public property being sold to the private sector.

Think what you will about the Candy Factory sale - and I've infuriated #9 by continuing to say that I have mixed feelings about it. But please keep straight what it involved.

Bbeanster's picture

Your question is not

Your question is not addressed to me, but here's my impression:
The Candy Factory/ED nexus, in the minds of those who feel aggrieved, is probably the final disposition of the property, whether private or public. IE: It ends up in the hands of well-connected developers who reap great benefits.

Not sure why that's so hard for you to see, whether you agree, disagree or are indifferent.

What's interesting about this rally is it appears to involve several disparate groups. If the organizers pull it off, they will have put a dent in the hold of the Apathy Party, and just might be on their way to creating very interesting political tool. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like it in these parts -- IF they pull it off.

I have a question for you: Why the hostility among the former K2K crowd for this movement?

Rachel's picture

Hmm, I don't know about

Hmm, I don't know about others - I don't have any particular hostility toward any "movement." I just like for people to keep their facts straight. As do you, since you poked fun at (rightly) folks who thought the wheel tax was paying off the CC debt.

I do understand the nexus between all of these things relating to govt ownership of property, but I also think it's important to keep straight what is going on, what legal standards apply to which situation, etc. Situations are complicated, and it's just not enough to declare you are on the side of the people that the big bad govt is trying to oppress. There's been some of that operating on the CF issue (along with some good discussion of real important issues).

BTW, I vastly preferred the property tax increase to the wheel tax - precisely because it falls much more on the people who can afford it (although I know a property tax increase is hard for folks on fixed incomes too). Hell, I'd support a local cap gains tax - is that even legal?? (Not that it would ever stand a snowball's chance in hell of being passed).

Bbeanster's picture

Hmm, I don't know about

Hmm, I don't know about others - I don't have any particular hostility toward any "movement." I just like for people to keep their facts straight. As do you, since you poked fun at (rightly) folks who thought the wheel tax was paying off the CC debt.>.

Look,Gemeni, ;-)
You are the LEAST offensive of the regulars over there, and I shouldn't be picking fights with you. Part of my problem with the blab culture is that nobody pointed out the guy's error (if anyone even noticed it.) Too busy picking on the outsider, evidently.

I do understand the nexus between all of these things relating to govt ownership of property, but I also think it's important to keep straight what is going on, what legal standards apply to which situation, etc. Situations are complicated, and it's just not enough to declare you are on the side of the people that the big bad govt is trying to oppress. There's been some of that operating on the CF >>

I understand that, and have steered clear of the issue. Frankly, I think the emphasis on free meeting space was misguided, and that the better argument would have been against giving up the big city-owned property that stands closest to the largest financial investment the citizens of this city have ever made. Seems like only yesterday that Victor was trying to snatch up the Holiday Inn for that very reason. That attempt at ED didn't work, btw, because the owner of the property had the dough to hire the best anti-ED lawyer in this part of the country. If you were there to see Joe Connor tear Tom McAdams and Michael Kelley a new one, you know it was a beautiful thing.

BTW, I vastly preferred the property tax increase to the wheel tax - precisely because it falls much more on the people who can afford it (although I know a property tax increase is hard for folks on fixed incomes too). Hell, I'd support a local cap gains tax - is that even legal?? (Not that it would ever stand a snowball's chance in hell of being passed).>>

And finally, I agree with every single word of your last graf, which is why I opposed the wheel tax and signed the petition. Its major supporters (I have Mike Arms in mind here) actually said out loud that it was a "fair" tax because poor people had to pay it too. He didn't mention welfare Cadillacs, but he really didn't have to.

MArnold's picture

So it was right to poke fun

So it was right to poke fun instead of inform or enlighten someone? Accuse them of drinking the kool-aid is the right thing to do instead of correcting them? No way to win folks over I'd say.How about next time I'm mis-informed about a subject, just point it out instead of pointing fingers, OK. Thanks.


Bbeanster's picture

Are you the guy who thinks

Are you the guy who thinks the wheel tax can be used to pay down the CC debt?
I presume you are, but can't say for sure, since the post has been taken down. But unless my memory fails me (which it, sadly, does from time to time), I believe that you did a fair amount of name calling in that post, did you not? Implied that folks who opposed the wheel tax are stupid?
Yes, I'm quite sure you did.
So go whine somewhere else. You ain't in Kansas anymore.

MArnold's picture

You are wrong other than I

You are wrong other than I thought (and was corrected and informed of some other things I didn't know) about usage of the wheel tax. I implied nothing of the sort and called no one anything. The post is still up if you want to view it.g

Rachel's picture

Its major supporters (I have

Its major supporters (I have Mike Arms in mind here) actually said out loud that it was a "fair" tax because poor people had to pay it too. He didn't mention welfare Cadillacs, but he really didn't have to.

I remember somebody asking Ragsdale about impact fees. He said he was against them because they wouldn't be "fair." I guess because the folks paying them would be the ones buying greenfield property and actually using the new infrastructure being taxed; rather than everybody in Knox County paying for it. Same mentality, me thinks.

Oh, and here's a dandy answer from Mike Arms, from the LWV 2002 Commission candidate questionnaire:

Q: Does Knox County have an urban sprawl problem?
A? No, our problem is not urban sprawl but an abandonment of intercity living and business activity.

Duh. Of course there's no connection between the two.

I suppose we've meandered way off subject, but hey, conversations do that.

Leslie's picture

Gemini Wrote; BTW, I vastly

Gemini Wrote; BTW, I vastly preferred the property tax increase to the wheel tax - precisely because it falls much more on the people who can afford it (although I know a property tax increase is hard for folks on fixed incomes too). Hell, I'd support a local cap gains tax - is that even legal?? (Not that it would ever stand a snowball's chance in hell of being passed).

Don't know about a cap gains tax, but honestly, if the county would fix the wheel tax, ie, make it a true ad valorem, I could live with it.  It drives me bonkers that new(er) vehicles, especially Hummers and SUV's, aren't paying any more in tax than I do for the 1990 era car that I drive.  We live in a place that has made the top ten every year for air pollution, for the last what? 6 years?  I mean come on, luxury vehicles that only get 7-8 miles to the gallon in this environment with a much higher value than the average 10-15 year old used car should be taxed at a higher rate. 

It can be done.  I paid a wheel tax in Georgia, which I've mentioned before.  It declines each year with the depreciation of your vehicle. 

No, where Ragsdale and company lost me was the totally illogical and regressive form of this tax.  The suggestion has been made that it couldn't be done that way because of state law.  Don't know if that's true, but if so, why not lobby our delgation for the appropriate changes that would make a fairer wheel tax possible?  And if not, then why the heck couldn't the tax have been structured based upon value?

Rachel's picture

A decreased rate for hybrids

A decreased rate for hybrids would be nice too, if Knox County is serious about working on air pollution.

Of course I need to disclose that I personally would benefit from this proposal.

Bbeanster's picture

The regressive nature of the

The regressive nature of the wheel tax was one of its selling points. When members of the Ragsdale administration (hey, what do they care -- they drive cars owned by the county, fueled via county-paid Pilot Oil credit cards, parked free in the CC building parking garage. These are perks we must give these public servants to keep them on the government tit and prevent them from being snapped up by the private sector.)

But I digress. When Ragsdale's minions ticked off the virtues and benefits of the wheelm tax, they always mentioned that it is a "fair" tax, because "EVERYBODY PAYS IT" even food stamp recipients and public housing dwellers (everybody who owns a licensed vehicle, that is)

I do not think the first thought was given to making it an "ad valorem" or value-added tax. That would defeat the whole notion of making it "fair."

No accident that the affluent areas of Knox County preferred the wheel tax over a property tax hike.

spintrepid's picture

hey Betty, re: anonymity.

hey Betty, re: anonymity. you'd be surprised who's around and on these boards that you've rubbed elbows with from Sam and Andy days.

BTW, here's a rant I put up on the blab. The main gripe is in the first few lines, the rest is over the top. It isn't just about the candy factory with everyone...

(link...)

Bbeanster's picture

Rubbed elbows, eh? God, I

Rubbed elbows, eh?
God, I hope that's all ;-)
So who the heck are you, Spintrepidator?

skirob's picture

BBeanster, I'm sorry that

BBeanster, I'm sorry that you felt like an outsider on KnoxBlab and also, that you have to be a member of "the clique". Anonymity isn't anything new to the messageboard world and you're going to run into it no matter where you choose to hang out. Sure, I know a lot of the folks on KnoxBlab, but I honestly DON'T know the majority. If it comes off as a "clique" well, I'm sorry bit it's not. Sure, it may be hard to break into but that makes it a better community in the long run because a lot of the trolls are kept at bay.
Oh, and the name calling that you refer too? Interestingly enough, that person and the one claiming to conduct "research" for MetroPulse seem to be one and the same.

Bbeanster's picture

Hey, I've got no problem

Hey, I've got no problem with anonymity. per se. I'm not, for example, one of those who ran Bubba off k2k for not revealing his identity (unlike several of your blabbites). I believe I've made my position pretty clear, and I'm tired of repeating it over and over and over again.

I'm not complaining about being an "outsider" there, either. That's my choice, and I'm not exactly a shrinking violet. There's a whole wide cyberworld of messageboards, and I like it here. Therefore, I will resist any attempt to turn this into the blab, and that is what I did when I saw the first three or four posts in this thread.

michael kaplan's picture

For the connection between

For the connection between eminent domain and the Candy Factory, read the KCDC World's Fair Park Redevelopment and Urban Renewal. Then read the relevant (referenced) sections of Tennessee Code Annotated. Then read the transcript of my comments at the KCDC hearing that took place on December 28, 2005.

Please note, too, that I am not a member of the Green Party.

michael kaplan's picture

9 wrote: "One of these

9 wrote: "One of these speakers will be Michael Kaplan of the Green Party."

I'm not a member of the Green Party, although I agree with many of their positions on local and national issues.

Number9's picture

I'm not a member of the

I'm not a member of the Green Party, although I agree with many of their positions on local and national issues.

Michael, I am sorry I got that wrong. Thanks for the clarification.

rikki's picture

Michael Silence has nothing

Michael Silence has nothing about this rally at his blog, and I don't see a report on the Sentinel website. Are any others in attendance willing to share their impressions? Mr. Kaplan? Mr. Lyons? Anyone?

R. Neal's picture

Bueller?

Bueller?

ernie's picture

Someone has got to do

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

style="display:block"
data-ad-format="autorelaxed"
data-ad-client="ca-pub-3296520478850753"
data-ad-slot="5999968558">

TN Progressive

TN Politics

Knox TN Today

Local TV News

News Sentinel

State News

Local .GOV

Wire Reports

Lost Medicaid Funding

To date, the failure to expand Medicaid/TennCare has cost the State of Tennessee ? in lost federal funding. (Source)

Search and Archives