Been out shopping for a hybrid this weekend. Think we've narrowed it down to the Honda Civic Hybrid or the Toyota Prius.
(Eliminated the Camry Hybrid early on because of higher price and lower MPG, but man, they've got a nice one with leather, moonroof, and all the toys which they claim gets 40 MPG in the city but user reports say otherwise. Plus, it's about $33K. You can't get the Altima hybrid here yet, but it's positioned about the same as the Camry.)
What do y'all think? Civic Hybrid or Prius?
Prius pros: Hatchback, fold-down seats give more cargo capacity and greater convenient. Runs more on electric motor. Higher EPA mileage rating (EPA 60/51, user reported avg. 44). Slightly better acceleration. Slightly roomier in the back seats.
Prius cons: Ugly, ugly, ugly. Goofy touch screen to control most everything in the cockpit. I want to drive my car, not program it. Goofy startup procedure and gear shifting. Did I mention ugly?
Civic Hybrid pros: Looks and functions more like a "normal" car. Handles great, better ride, more fun to drive. Better layout and operation of cockpit functions and controls. Better visibility out the rear window for backing up. Has separate starter battery so you can jump it off if necessary.
Civic Hybrid cons: Smaller trunk capacity and no fold-down seats. Slightly less room in the back seat. (And no cupholders!) ICE motor runs more frequently, slightly less MPG (EPA 49/51, user reported avg. 43). Not quite as peppy. (Although neither car will be winning any drag races any time soon.)
Pricing is about the same for base models at around $23K. One difference, though, is that the Civic Hybrid has no options except navigation system, and the base model is nicely equipped. With the Prius, you can get leather seats, navigation, comfort packages, etc. etc. You can also run the price up over $30K. (Sorry, ain't no way I'm paying that.) One other nice option for the Prius is the backup video camera, but on the other hand you almost need it because of the poor view out the rear window.
I like the Civic Hybrid because of handling, ride, and "normal car" styling and operation. The Mrs. likes the techno-geek factor of the Prius, and we both like the hatchback/fold-down seats.
So, any Prius or Civic Hybrid owners out there? What do y'all think?
(P.S. Can't compare stereos. The Civic has an adequate to nice system that is XM and Aux/I-Pod ready. So does the Prius, but apparently they can't leave some fuse in because the battery will run down and the salesman was too lazy to install it so we didn't get to hear the stereo or work the $5K option package navigation system. Advantage: Honda sales person.)
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I don't own a hybrid but if
I don't own a hybrid but if I had to choose between these two I would go for the Honda based on "looks". I like Toyota's (I own a 4-Runner which gets 22-25 mpg...not too bad for an SUV) but the Prius is just damn ugly...did a blind guy design it? I'm also not picky when it comes to the bells and whistles on my cars...I think leather is overrated...it burns your ass in the summer and freezes it in the winter...unless you have an "ass warmer"/heated seats. You also cant beat the XM/IPOD ready audio system.
The one thing I like about
The one thing I like about leather is that it's easier to clean up spilled coffee. :)
As you know, we have a Civic
As you know, we have a Civic hybrid. One big reason was that I hated the look of the Prius, and the spouse didn't like it much either. We also disliked the Prius startup system.
Our gas mileage experience is 40-44 city (varies mostly due to weather - when it's cold the engine doesn't shut down at lights; when it's hot the A/C impacts mileage), 45-47 highway. If you can live with setting the cruise at 60 on the open road, you can get 50 mph.
The trunk size has occasionally been a small inconvenience (we down-sized from an Accord), but nothing major. It's usually just the two of us (or more often, just the one of me), but when we do have another couple in the backseat, they seem to have adequate room (losing the "hump" in the floor seems to help with that).
We've had the car almost 4 years and have had nothing done to it other than routine maintenance.
I know some Prius owners who wouldn't have anything else. But we're completely happy with the Civic.
P.S. Does is still come just in white, pewter, and blue?
I might wait awhile
until there's a better selection of hybrids on the market, like ... a Honda Civic Hybrid WAGON. Wouldn't that be sweet? I also recall that my 1984 Civic Hatchback got 50 mpg on the road. You might also check out the Honda Fit 5-door or Toyota Yaris 3-door; both would save you several thousand dollars and still get around 30 mpg in town.
So your choices are between
So your choices are between good and just as good? I have friends driving both cars and nobody seems to be unhappy.
I say make your choice on the sound system. Excellent background noise reduction and accurate reproduction trumps everything, brother(and sister). If the ending to "A Day in the life" goes on forever...Well, duh!
I drive a Matrix and get 34 mpg. I figure that's enough for now. If I lived in the city I would go hybrid though. Still miss the Bose system in the old Subaru, though. My youngest lets ne drive from time to time.
2003 Prius is fine
We bought a Prius in 2003 (before it switched to a hatchback in 04) and it has been outstanding. Gay does the bulk of the driving and reports 45 - 50 MPG. The service has been very good and we both think it is fun to drive. I don't see how you can go wrong with either car now that they both have been out a while with good customer response. One more variable is resale. I don't know about the Honda but the Prius has held its value incredibly well.
hybrids worse than hummers?
perhaps hybrids are worse than hummers? i haven't researched enough to come to a conclusion about the linked article, but it meshes with my extreme skepticism about hybrids. and, that nickel battery "dead zone" shit definitely merits further research beyond "which one should i buy?" finally, who knows if the world will even have enough industrial capacity to produce another hybrid battery when the time comes to replace yours-- be it 100,000 miles or 250,000 miles?
why not find a old, used honda civic that doesn't have an on-board computer; thus, you can fix it on your own -- just in case :)
Urban Legend
I recall that analysis (hybrids worse than hummers) was a PR job done by a marketing firm that works for the Big 3 automakers, and it's full of holes. Here's the facts:
(link...)
(link...)
(link...)
Some highlights:
- Hummer assumed to have life of over 300,000 miles, Prius only 109,000
- Improper assumption of fuel as total energy cost over lifetime (industry is 85% to 90%). The CNW study attributes a much lower total cost to fuel consumption
- The study attributes a heavier vehicle (hummer) to more $ as recycled material- in fact, FIVE TIMES what the car was originally purchased for. According to the CNW story, I could buy a Hummer, trash it, and the recycled materials would net me a $100,00 profit!
- Cost of Prius battery represents 90% of the cost of the car? I don't think so.
- Environmental impacts of nickel mining were based on ONE plant in Canada, which has since cleaned up (data is circa 1980, I think, and I remember hearing about that plant.
-----------------------------------------
Fighting for Reform and Representation, Fourth District
Steve Drevik, Commission Seat 4-B
(link...)
Other choices
Is there a hurry to buy a new vehicle? I hope no one had a wreck. Or is that tin-foil hat predicting a sudden shortage of fuel?
The Tribute hybrid is expected out in May, along with the new generation of Escape/Mariner. They are set up to drive on battery only and I hear about plug-in conversion kits out there. Then there's the hybrid Fit coming this summer if MPG is your biggest concern. It's supposed to have an Insight engine. And that counts as a wagon, Michael.
I was researching the Tribute and came across a press release from Mazda that was all about improving fuel efficiency in its entire fleet by 2010 - what a novel concept!
______________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs
Tax credits
I'll have my car impressions shortly, but you didn't mention tax credits, which get halved for the Prius after next Saturday (3/31) from its current amount of $1575. (I think that means taking delivery by then.) Starting April 1, it drops to $787.50. The credit for the Honda hybrid is $2100 and will stay there, at least for a while.
This is more Republican voodoo economics from the previous Congress. Seems there's a quota on how many car sales until the credit ramps down toward zero. The Prius had the largest credit ($3150) due to its highest MPG rating, but it hit its quota of 60k cars last October, which halved the credit to the current $1575, soon to be $787.50.
The lower MPG Civic, OTOH, still hasn't sold its 60k, so its full credit is still on the table.
Does this make ANY freakin' sense, for providing incentive to buy more high MPG cars? Why is the credit temporary? Why are later adopters or those pursuing the highest MPG car being penalized?
If somebody understands this differently, please let us all know, but it's written here.
I was in the same
I was in the same predicament for a while a couple months ago. I really wanted to go green - environmentally friendly, etc, with a second car. I managed to snag a new Prius for a couple of days to test drive it. It wasn't nice. The touch screen is great if you can drive 70 mph and be comfy taking your eyes off the road long enough to focus on the screen, find the option you want, touch the screen and then refocus on the road. I managed in the two days I had it to completely turn off the video display on the touch screen and couldn't figure out how to turn it back on. Intuitive, it ain't and driving it kept me on edge the whole time. It wasn't pretty.
On my way to take the Prius back to the dealer, I stoopped in the honda dealership and bought a Civic Hybrid. So far, so good ! First tank of gas gave me about 38mpg. It is quiet, safe, and Honda-dependable. I am happy with my choice and feel much safer because I can concentrate on the road, not on the touch-screen.
How you drive
The Prius is reputed to be better in stop and start city traffic, the Civic if you drive more on the highway. This may be why the user-reported averages are so similar. Living in Blount County, I'd probably go for the Honda based on my driving habits. Also, this would mean you wouldn't have to drive to west Knoxville or Oak Ridge to find a Toyota dealer you could stand. (I've never owned a Toyota, but I've never had a good shopping experience at Rick McGill.)
Wonder why you don't get the fold down seats? My non-hybrid Civic has them.
mw
how you drive
The hybrid back seats don't fold down because that is where the electric motor battery is located. jp
CarViews
By coinkidink we're also in the market for a vehicle. We were originally planning to get a replacement used 6-cyl. wagon, and that's back to currently being our main option. But we have considered going hybrid. We really wanted to do that, but it means buying a new car vs. used, and either keeping the old car as a hauler, or sharing just our other wagon as the one hauler.
Helping the decision not to get another wagon is the dwindling number of choices in that configuration. It's pretty much just Volvos, but I'm really disappointed by the V70 series samples we've driven. The 5-cyl. sounds like a 4-banger (think weed eater) and the noise, vibration, harshness ("NVH" in car-geek parlance) is really inexcusable for something with the Volvo emblem, IMO. I thought its drivetrain was supposed to work like a 6-cyl. but with better mileage and more low end torque from its turbo, but my best impression is that the old Volvo 6 in our '93 would get better mileage than these V70's, besides driving better. Mrs. FC didn't notice much wrong in the NVH dept., though, so we might still get one or look at Subarus or Mazdas. But I digress.
We drove two Priuses, but we didn't get around to the Honda. We intended to last week, right off our second Prius drive, so we could compare fresh, back to back. But we were burned out and pretty much decided the fixed rear seat Honda sedan could not match the Prius for usability, nor is it supposed to get the mileage of a Prius.
Prius impressions: As I've said here before, I like its futuristic looks and think I could get used to all the fancy gauges and controls. After driving two of them, we think we could get used to the lack of luxuries we have grown accustomed to (leather, sunroof, seat heaters, etc.). It's really pretty darn roomy for passengers, except headroom in the back for tall people. Knee room was quite generous and the front seats were fine.
We really liked the backup camera, but you're right, the view was really badly blocked by the near horizontal back window, and the spoiler cutting straight across the middle. I'm surprised Toyota would sell something that hard to see out the back.
The first test drive we did at Toyota Knoxville, just because it was in town, I guess. For numerous reasons, I would never buy from them, though. The car was OK, but it was really hard to tell anything in that noise and traffic.
The second drive was at Fox in Clinton. The salesman there was the easiest guy to talk to as you'll ever find at any car dealership. Fox has a great reputation from all I've heard. I would definitely buy from them, if I were to buy a new Toyota.
Anyway, driving in Clinton made it much easier to get a feel for the car. The overriding "problem" we had with it, though, was that it was so weak off the line and going up hills. I thought the power/weight ratio was much better than that, and that the electric motor would help the low end torque. But even driving with reasonably light feet, it seemed we had to really dig in and it would just whine like most little buzz box rental cars. Mrs. FC strongly questioned the safety of being able to pull away as well as she thinks she needs to.
Moreover, I was watching the avg MPG display throughout the drive. I think our entire 7 mile test drive averaged about 22 MPG!!! Was there something wrong with this particular car? Were we not sufficiently trained to drive it right? Did we have the foot brake on?
We are anything but lead feet, but this experience left me scratching my head.
Just for the heck of it, we then drove a 6-cyl. RAV4 while still at the Fox Toyota lot. Consumer Reports is crazy for it and advises that they obtained only 1 MPG less in the torquey V6 than in the 4-cyl. We loved that ride. Very nice and not very much more expensive than the Prius. But that just made us want to re-think the new/used car route, since there are plenty of decent 6-cyl. rides out there for many thousands of dollars less.
Just today we were seeing so many hideous and obscene rolling carbon factories in SoKno that we were talking again about our desire to get a hybrid as a way to vote for something better. But would our buying a slow Prius really offset all the damage being done by all the slack-jawed yokels that pass for average anymore? We're already reasonably green in many respects and I don't want to feel bullied into a current generation hybrid, just because others are so much more irresponsible.
There are so many great ideas for cars that are feasible today, but the market is largely driven by the buying idiots who have put GM, Ford, and Chrysler where they are today. It's grim.
We're still lookin' for alternatives. Maybe another drive in a Prius too, though. We want to like it more.
P.S. The handling of the Prius is fine for me, and I've owned some great handling cars. There is a new touring model, but the guy at Fox (and the larger spoiler on the rear, that my wife hates) convinced us there's not much noticable difference, so we didn't drive that one. I don't know if it's just a gimmick to have another model with larger tires or not.
insurance ?
Have you had a chance to get insurance quotes on both of them yet? Maybe there is little difference- maybe there is a big difference?
Of course, we are a family with two 'under the age of 25 male drivers' on the policy and an adult with a lead foot....
Thanks for all the comments.
Thanks for all the comments.
FC is correct on the tax credit, thanks for that info. The Honda qualifies for a $2100 credit, which the dealer mentioned and you can confirm on Honda's website. I hadn't checked on Toyota's yet and wasn't able to find out from the dealer ("we aren't tax advisors" they told me) or their website (at least it wasn't obvious). We were under the impression their quota had run out (thus the smart-ass "we aren't tax advisors" response -- I bet they were tax advising SOBs when you could still get the full credit).
(Also, FC, I hate to keep hyping the Ford Freestyle, but you ought to take a look at it. It uses a Volvo frame design, based on the V70 I believe, with Volvo-like safety features but "Americanized" for ride and handling and function. We've been very happy with ours. We get 22 or so around town and 28-30 on the highway in the front-wheel drive CVT version. I think the new version will have a bigger engine and a six-speed auto, so not sure they will get the same mileage. Smaller than an Explorer in profile, yet seats seven or hauls almost as much junk as an Explorer. Goose Creek measured it, though, and it won't haul a 4X8 sheet of plywood which is her criteria.)
The reason we are shopping is we had a twelve-year old Explorer that was sitting in the driveway not being driven at all that we traded on a Freestyle. Now still have a 2004 V8 Explorer sitting in the driveway that has been driven about 1200 miles in the last six or nine months. I need to get rid of it, but there's just nothing out there that appeals to me and I will not buy another car that gets 20MPG. The Explorer is nice and it will haul ass (and haul a lot of junk) but it's like driving a tank after driving the Freestyle, and it sucks down the fuel. Because we have the Freestyle for road trips with a lot of junk, we are looking for a dingy that gets good mileage around town that might get driven more.
Bill: good point on the resale value. I checked CarMax and it looks like both the Prius and the Honda hold their value pretty well. Mello, good point about insurance. Will check on that with our agent.
Steve: we were considering something like the Matrix or the Nissan Versa, but I'm lobbying for a hybrid, mainly to support and promote development of cars with high-mileage alternative designs. But we may still end up going the standard 4-banger hatchback route, because the Mrs. isn't totally sold on paying a premium.
Or I may just say screw it and get a BMW convertible. Or a 350Z convertible. Sweet! Except there's no place for Pupster to sit.
Batteries
Wonder why you don't get the fold down seats? My non-hybrid Civic has them.
The batteries for the Civic are located between the back seat and trunk.
~m.
You may want to check this
You may want to check this first.
(link...)
WhitesCreek
Sorry, been out a fighting forest fire. (Arson, and if I catch you, whoever you are, I'm going to tell my crazy neighbor who you are and where you live.)
Hybrid technology is pretty well blessed by the Union of Concerned Scientists as the backbone of their Vanguard project. Batteries can only get better, though there are concerns. I don't understand why there isn't a plug in option from the factory. Lot's of folks retrofit but it voids the warranty.
I guess we will all be driving hybrids soon. Sooner is better.
metulj, I guess that's the
metulj, I guess that's the reason I harped on the Volvos here. I was hoping for some good feedback like yours. We've driven a regular non-turbo V70 that had surprising power, both a V70 and XC70 with the 208hp "light turbo," and one V70 T5. The T5 was pretty strong, but all versions sounded to me like 4's and there was a lot of vibration through the steering wheel at various throttle points. The handling otherwise was pretty good. So you're saying that the T5 can get good mileage, but the Cross Countrys don't? They're not that much heavier, I don't think. Does yours exhibit vibration or are most more refined than the ones we drove?
skb, one guy at Toy-Knox said the credit is about $800 but he wasn't sure, and another guy there said $700. You'd think they'd want us to get one soon enough to know that there's another $800 in it before the end of month. So they were clueless. The guy at Fox didn't mention it, but he was not chatty or high pressure at all, unlike the guys in WeKno.
I didn't know you had a Freestyle. I just guessed Explorer from the truck photo on your trip out west. I like the Freestyle, but I thought it was based on the 500, which I like too. I just hate Ford (and GM) and the Freestyle is one that I think is ugly. The 500 looks much better. Also didn't think the mileage would be as good as you say. Maybe we'll check it out.
One criterion I use as a guess of whether something is a gas guzzler I just couldn't own is weight. I'd like to stay under 3600-3800 lbs. Besides MPG, there's tire and brake wear, bad handling, etc. The Freestyle is very slightly over, but at least can squeak under 4000 lbs. in your config. of FWD/CVT. (Most SUVs are WAY over 4000 lbs. The little VW Tourag amazingly weighs about 5000lbs!)
One SUV that we are seriously considering is a used Lexus RX300 (the smaller, pre-2004 version). It's not much heavier than a Camry and has basically the same drivetrain as it (or Highlander or RAV4), and Lexus has even a better reliability record than Toyota. And comfortable too. There are a lot on the road, so they're fairly easy to find. It's of course a little smaller than the wagons we're used to. We don't really need to haul a 4x8. Just dogs, travel gear, and my doghouse bass. (Not all together!)
I just guessed Explorer from
I just guessed Explorer from the truck photo on your trip out west.
Yes, that's the one we still have and want to trade. We got the Freestyle a little over a year ago and haven't driven the Explorer much since.
The Explorer got about 18MPG on the way out, and 22MPG on the way back. Not sure what's up with that. Uphill to the Rockies and downhill on the return? Headwind v. tailwind, like jets? Fewer stops and more Interstate on the return because we were ready to get home? Who knows.
Oh, and I believe the 500 and the Freestyle share the same basic frame/drivetrain. Next year they are renaming them to Taurus (500) and Taurus X (Freestyle) to bring back that brand. Both will have some styling redesign. (Funny, we thought the 500 was ugly. It's all so subjective.)
Slight edge to Civic
Last fall we test drove both the Civic hybrid and the Prius. We liked the Civic slightly better... felt roomier inside, had better visibility, seemed a bit peppier, less road noise, and it didn't get bucked and blown around as much on the interstate as the Prius did.
There seemed to be a huge difference between MSRP and what Toyota of Knoxville was trying to sell the Prius for--about +$3000 off the lot, unwilling to negotiate, and the only one they had at the time was loaded up to $30K (which seemed ridiculous next to a regular Camry). We were looking for a Prius without the gold-plated tailpipe I guess.
We were primed to buy the Civic until we saw the color options... blue-gray, silver-gray, charcol-gray, beige-gray or white-gray. Metalic. No red. No black. No actual colors. The Prius does have a reasonably attractive Barcelona red and a nice black.
Ultimately, after doing some math and analyzing the kind of driving we do, we weren't blown away enough by either car to purchase one.
Hatchbacks/ wagons
I'm with the Mrs on this one -- if you forgo the hybrid requirement there is a huuuuge variety out there. The only reason I consider a hybrid is that 90% of my driving is in the city.
_________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs
I would just point out that
I would just point out that using less gas is only one "greet" reason to buy a hybrid - they also have lower emissions.
How about a small SUV?
I know like five people with Honda CR-Vs and they love them. EPA is 22/28.
Consumer Reports prefers the Toyota RAV-4. EPA is 23/28 for the six cylinder or 24/30 for the four.
Both have really good crash test ratings and are ULEV-2 rated.
www.lesjones.com
The Toyota Rav-4 barely does
The Toyota Rav-4 barely does better than our Ford Freestyle and the Freestyle is much larger. I really like the Freestyle. Don't know why some people don't like the looks.
Just got 29 MPG when going the 450 miles to Valdosta, GA.
Looking for something that gets much better mileage around town, 30-40 MPG.
Don't know why some people
It's not THAT bad, bizgrrl. Just generic and bland. The 500 at least has that nice roofline similar to a VW/Audi. How has the reliability been? Would you trust it as well as a Toyota or Honda?
I wanted to check out the CR-V, but when we saw them in the lot, my wife just wasn't moved by them to look any further. I do have my qualms about the drivability of a 4-cyl. mated with an automatic, but if anybody could make it work well, it would be Honda.
I would not like that part.
I would jump for a used Audi A6 wagon or even a Mercedes E320 wagon, but reliability of most German cars, I fear, has just gotten to be too poor. It's hard to believe they've slipped so far. (The Passat wagons we drove struck me as too small and overpowered w/ V6 and undertorqued w/ turbo 4.)
Yes, I would trust the Fords
Yes, I would trust the Fords we have owned.
Never owned a Honda. Ownly owned a very old used Toyota Corolla for less than a year, it leaked oil badly. Right before getting rid of it found out it was just a $20 repair.
Have owned Ford Explorers for the last 12 years or more. Never really had a problem. Really like the Explorer. Admit we do not keep them much past warranty, except for one. We drove I-75 from Orlando to K-Town 3-4 (sometimes more) a year and did not want any problems. The '92 Explorer we kept until 2005. Never had a problem until a $500 transmission repair in 2000.
Were Nissan/Datsun enthusiasts before Ford.
How has the reliability
How has the reliability been?
RE the Freestyle, 15 months, 14,000 miles, no problems whatsoever. Just oil changes and we got 5 or so free oil change coupons when we bought it.
The hardest part was locating the one we wanted. We did not want AWD or the DVD player. They had to bring one in from another state for us.
I got a 2005 Hyundai Santa
I got a 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe about a year ago and I love it. I had considered the Rav-4 & a CR-V but went with the Santa Fe because of the way the back end opened up. The Santa Fe opens up while the others open to the side. I wanted the Hyundai Tucson because even the front passenger seat folded down but a used one would have been from the first model year and that breaks one of my cardinal rules of car buying.
"Just got 29 MPG when going
"Just got 29 MPG when going the 450 miles to Valdosta, GA."
The EPA for the Freestyle is 19/24, to make the comparison apples-to-apples.
I'm not saying you didn't get that mileage you got. I'm saying the EPA rating and what you get on a highway trip aren't the same thing at all, so you can't compare them.
And, well, I am a little skeptical about that 29 mpg number. There's a right way and a lot of wrong ways to calculate mileage, and lots of people do it wrong. FWIW, CU's mileage test number for the Freestyle was 23 mpg for a 150 mile highway trip.
www.lesjones.com
Consumer reports tested the
Consumer reports tested the AWD version, not the FWD version. The 19/24 you cite is for the AWD version, not the FWD version.
EPA mileage on the sticker for the FWD version is 20/27. We consistently get better. This is based on the MPG/trip computer, which we have found to be accurate.
Also, failed to mention only
Also, failed to mention only got about 27.5 on the way back. Guess I was going up hill most of the way. On the other hand, I was in a much bigger hurry to get back (75-80 mph, very little cruise control) than I was to go there (65-75, a lot of cruise control).
The FWD vs AWD would explain
The FWD vs AWD would explain the discrepancy in numbers. OK, I take my skepticism back. :-)
www.lesjones.com
The London Times tested a
The London Times tested a Prius against a diesel BMW 520d for fuel consumption in a 545 mile road test. Guess which car won. The BMW. Of course it doesn't appear to be available in the US. And, the cost is quite a bit more than the Prius.
RE: BMW diesel 520d
RE: Toyota Prius
An interesting side point, it appears they may tax cars based on the car's mpg and emissions?
The Prius Hum job
A recent summary is at Slate too.