Tue
Jan 8 2008
10:32 pm

As of 10:30 ET, MSNBC is forecasting a Hillary Clinton NH victory.

The split, as of this hour:

39 (Clinton) - 36 (Obama) - 17 (Edwards)

bill young's picture

BIG Night 4 Hillary

CNN holds out

Eleanor A's picture

CNN just called. Obama

CNN just called. Obama talking now...

Tomorrow's moniker: "Comeback Queen"...

Rachel's picture

My guess is that I'm not the

My guess is that I'm not the only woman pissed off at the treatment Hillary got this week.

There's a big part of me saying "you go, girl!"

Eleanor A's picture

Obama just gave the best

Obama just gave the best concession speech I have ever heard. Bar none.

Andy Axel's picture

It may have technically been

It may have technically been a "concession" speech, but I didn't hear him "concede" a thing.

Contrary to what Tweety Matthews is currently spouting...

____________________________

With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.

Pam Strickland's picture

Yeah, I have to confess that

Yeah, I have to confess that it moved me more in her direction. At least for the moment.

pgs

Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

Pam Strickland's picture

Yeah, I have to confess that

Yeah, I have to confess that it moved me more in her direction. At least for the moment.

pgs

Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

bill young's picture

Now We Move On

Good job by Clinton tonight ..congrats to her folks

But now we move on..Nev the 19th...SC the 26th

But by golly we start our turn Jan 16th

Like I've said we gonna do sum votin this time.

Andy Axel's picture

If you were watching MSNBC...

Rachel Maddow had the exchange of the night. She told Matthews that the boorish, sexist manner in which Matthews and Mrs. Greenspan specifically denigrated Clinton in the wake of "the tears" may have been what caused a late break for Clinton - a late break that the polls would have missed.

Anecdote, not evidence, but that's sorta the Matthews Standard...

I mean this whole weekend we see people like Andrea Mitchell and Chris Matthews salivating over how the Democrats "rejected the Clintons" and want to puke. I am for Obama not because I am against Clinton (either one), but because I am for Obama. That's it. I think he is the best of the big 3 dem candidates. Would I be happy to vote for Hillary or Edwards in the general? Hell yeah. Did I think Bill Clinton was a great President? Yes. And I think Hillary would probably be pretty good too. This whole media narrative sickened me.

I have been an Obama supporter since 04, gave money to him this year, own the t-shirt, etc., etc. But the sexist bullsh-t these past days (I am a woman) from the media is making me root for her to win this tonight. The only thing I dread if she wins tonight is the inevitable story from the media that this proves that white america really won't vote for a black man, the resulting made-up defection of Obama's made-up new found black support, etc., etc.

Rejection of these empty media narratives would be a great start.

...and Matthews is still at it. "Is the appeal of Hillary Clinton going to be a mix of her strength and empathy for her as a woman...?"

____________________________

With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.

Eleanor A's picture

It's going to be a tough

It's going to be a tough line for HRC to walk, in any event. Cue Carmela Soprano: "You know, I'm not a feminist (but)...She took all that negative shit he gave her, and spun it into gold. You got to give her credit."

To restate the obvious narratives that'll be used by the chattering class: Too much ballbusting=Man hater; too little=Weak, ineffective woman.

I'm not sure how she threads this needle, actually....except to keep doing what she's doing: talk about that narrative, and how it's unfairly held women back in seeking higher office. Combined with a few dozen other factors (women don't have the same access to traditional sources of capital as men, they're not as good for a few reasons at asking for money, etc.)

bill young's picture

final thoughts

The Des Moines Register Iowa Poll is a very deep poll that tracks 800 caucus voters in each party..plus the poll gets its sample from voter rolls which DO have cell phone numbers.

I had confidence in that poll & it picked Obama.

However,the polls in NH were not as deep nor did they have cell phone numbers.Thats why they missed the shift to Clinton.

Futhermore,women broke late & hard for Clinton.I think this is a result of Hillary's battles in NH.Bill may have been the comback kid in '92 but Hillary took all the punches.We know her..We like her..& she's one tough cookie...we're voting for her.

I said in a post yesterday that the dust up in the Persian Gulf could shift some independents that were on fence between Obama & McCain...to McCain.I think that was a factor.

Organization was also a key..The Clintons had been here before..put it together again & showed its muscle..on the ground.

On the other hand,Obama's ground game was built on big mo & ole mo aint much for muscle.

Finally,there came a time in the '68 race that RFK finally realized folks were voting for HIM & not JFK.

For Hillary..tonight was night that she realized..folks voted for me not Bill.

The first pitch in our primary is Jan 16th.

Eleanor A's picture

There were also a lot of

There were also a lot of undecideds in most of the polls...But, what are you gonna do: The pundits have to have a narrative going into these elections, so they did the best job they could, I suppose...

captainkona's picture

unbelievable

Doesn't that fact that Hillary continually rubber-stamped the Bush agenda, never once opposing the sucm in the White House on any issue, mean anything to anyone in this party? Particularly the women??

The hypocrisy level of the Democratic party is rising to GOP level fast.

All I can say is, if Hillary is the nominee, and the Repig wins in November, there will be no vote fraud to blame. Only the Dems that lost their minds and went and voted without them.


"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."

Brian A.'s picture

Voice

How is it that a candidate who is continually boasting of her 35 years of "experience" has only found her "voice" in the last three days?

Just wondering.

Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.

KC's picture

Particularly the women?? I

Particularly the women??

I thought it was only evangelicals who blamed women for everything?

R. Neal's picture

Moral of the story that

Moral of the story that people (including me) seem to forget sometimes: Never count a Clinton out.

(Recall that Bill Clinton had some of his highest job approval ratings -- while he was being impeached!)

KC's picture

Particularly the women??

Particularly the women??

Only the Dems that lost their minds and went and voted without them.

Only the Dems You mean the women you refer to earlier?

Do you still think they should even be allowed to vote?

Eleanor A's picture

That's not what he's saying.

That's not what he's saying. I don't agree with him (that HRC=GWB), but it's clear that arguing with him on the subject isn't going to accomplish anything.

I can understand why people are pissed about HRC positions on various things, but I still think her strengths trump her weaknesses (experience on health care issues; proven willingness to take on the likes of Ken Starr; promotion of various woman-friendly legislative issues as well as proven commitment to hire and promote women, gays and people of color; proven commitment to equal access to jobs and training for working class folks, as evidenced by HRC's endorsement by 12 million union members; proven commitment to pro-choice issues; proven cadre of effective staff people who'll know how to get things done and won't stumble into various Washington pitfalls...and believe me, Republicans will be waiting with various Special Prosecutors to try to trip up whomever wins this election.)

I can understand why people think HRC is too conservative. I agree with them, in theory, and would consider lining up with them in practice were the opposition not so, well, absurdly evil. The GOP has had many years now to build up a power base and many of its members will use any and every tactic available to them to undermine the concepts of equality, democracy, freedom, etc....and I just don't think nominating someone who'll have a steep learning curve vis a vis staffing and appointments issues, passing legislation, the ways of Washington, etc. is the way to defeat them, either in the short or the long term.

Someone mentioned earlier an abiding distaste for the persons with which HRC surrounds herself. I can understand that also, but I also think folks like Maggie Williams and Melanne Verveer should come into the mix...HRC's personal staff has historically been a far cry from the likes of Karl Rove and Scooter Libby.

Not that I'm directing this towards anyone here, particularly, but there'll always be people for whom few candidates are liberal enough. I'm personally not sorry to see it happen, in a state where the Democratic Party is so conservative (not particularly woman, black, Hispanic, gay or young person friendly) that a bit more radicalism hereabouts would be welcome.

All that said, asking women what we think about HRC positions on various things is fair game and should not be construed as anti-woman in any fashion whatsoever.

captainkona's picture

thanx

Thanx for being smart, Eleanor.
Gary tends to lower the overall KnoxViews IQ when he starts acting like a child.

I simply want this country to have a fresh start with new blood and all of the old conspirators gone. That means no Bush, no Clinton. it's time for a new way and we won't find it in the past.

Regards,


"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."

captainkona's picture

Gary the troll...

One of the main reasons I frequent KnoxViews is to watch you make a fool of yourself.

Thanx for the entertainment.


"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."

KC's picture

I think it's the Clintons,

I think it's the Clintons, partly.

Even without Carville and Begala, they're good.

But I also think it's the anomaly known as Iowa.

The question is, can anybody trust any of the polling now?

The world wonders.

KC's picture

I think the age demographic

I think the age demographic on this primary is more representative of what the future elections will be like than what it was in Iowa.

(link...)

Brian A.'s picture

More women than nationally

According to that exit poll, 57% of the voters yesterday were women.

In the 2004 national election, it was 54%.

Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.

Factchecker's picture

I think bill young's got it.

I think bill young's got it. That and the backlash for the way Hillary has been treated the last few days. Good for her. The race will be better for vetting the right candidate if she and Obama both stay in for at least a few more rounds.

Eleanor A's picture

I'd love Obama in the VP

I'd love Obama in the VP slot, personally. Saw a bumper sticker last night that read "CLINTON 2008, OBAMA 2016"...get him 8 years of experience as a Vice-President, and he's likely to become the best Commander in Chief this country has ever seen.

Hildegard's picture

If Democrats keep up the

If Democrats keep up the voting mantra/shrug, "Hey, it's the lesser of two evils...what are ya gonna do?" I see a very different political landscape in 2016, one that is even more hollow and depressing than the current campaign. But I guess it's kind of heartwarming that Democrats now share the Republican loyalists' penchant for overlooking uncomfortable truths in their zeal to win, win, win.

Eleanor A's picture

Got any better ideas? More

Got any better ideas? More importantly, are you doing anything about them?

captainkona's picture

harumph...

Democrats now share the Republican loyalists' penchant for overlooking uncomfortable truths in their zeal to win, win, win.

There's unfortunately a great deal of logic and truth to this statement.


"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."

Up Goose Creek's picture

Pundits

So I'm watching the news tonight and they're all about Clinton snatching Victory from the Jaws of Defeat and I'm like.... Dude, she lost Iowa by what - 3 points? Did that mean the race was over? Now she wins NH by 3 points.... Surprise?

What a bunch of Drama Kings.

____________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Rachel's picture

No s**t, Mamaw. The worst

No s**t, Mamaw. The worst thing about this campaign is watching the pundits yak - and one of the best was watching them eat crow last night, although some of them did so more gracefully than others.

Chris Matthews, for example, went on tee vee this morning to inform us that the only reason Hillary was even a Senator was that folks voted for her out of sympathy because her husband was a philanderer.

"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes

Eleanor A's picture

(sound of coffee spewing

(sound of coffee spewing onto computer screen)

Up Goose Creek's picture

Expectations

I'm thinking it's like when a stock price plummets because the earnings went up 15% and the analysts were predicting 17. Just because a candidate doesn't meet your inflated expectations doesn't mean that they are doomed, doomed I tell you.

Were the pundits so dramatic about McCain's Doom when he got 13% in Iowa?

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

KC's picture

Gary tends to lower the

Gary tends to lower the overall KnoxViews IQ when he starts acting like a child.

That means sooo much coming from someone who calls himself "captainkona" and has a cute cartoon attached to his comments. Is that your first name or last name?

What's interesting is that Obama used John Kerry's endorsement in South Carolina.

What kind of strategy is that? Using Bob Dole or another candidate who lost in a general would have the same effect for a Republican. None.

Couldn't Obama find any southern Democrats to endorse him? Does Kerry have any pull in South Carolina? If he doesn't, why use him at all in the state?

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